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"this House recognises that the right of free assembly and peaceful procession is an intrinsic human right",
yet it has been tabled by a party that has difficulty acknowledging intrinsic human rights in other areas. That is why the Democratic Unionist party is opposed to anything like a meaningful, robust Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland, saying that we do not need one, and why it rejects a rights-based approach to a number of other policy areas- [ Interruption. ] We can point to all sorts of rhetoric to show that that is what it does.
Mr. Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
"regrets the attempts by a minority to interfere with the right to parade peacefully".
I certainly do not want to see anyone's right to parade peacefully interfered with. There are, however, contentions around the question of what that right is, particularly in circumstances in which people feel that a parade that has been introduced or imposed in their area is provocative to the interests, identity and sentiments of the people in that area. That can give rise to the question of whether it is a peaceful parade, and whether it involves the normal right of assembly.
We need to recognise that there are few rights that apply regardless. We know that in the context of Northern Ireland people's exercise of the right of assembly has given rise to various public order issues, either directly or indirectly-either as a consequence of the people brought out to parade or to demonstrate in a given situation or as a consequence of those who come out against them and the wider atmosphere created. We know that in Northern Ireland there is a duty on us all to have regard to community relations and the interests of public order, so we need to remember that there are various requirements, in respect of responsibilities for good and proper public conduct, and in respect of the rights that may be asserted on behalf of particular interests to march or demonstrate.
I recall that there was some dispute about the provenance of the concept of a Parades Commission. Let me first reinforce what my hon. Friend the Member for South Down said: the Patten report worked very much on the basis of the Parades Commission already being in place, and fundamentally asserted that the issue should never revert to police officers having to make judgments and decisions on whether to permit parades on the basis of the risk to public order-in essence, on the basis of who represented the biggest threat.
That is what we had for a number of years in the '90s. The police were caught in a vice between the loyal orders insisting on a right to parade in contentious areas and groups calling themselves "residents groups". We heard earlier about what the right hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) believes to have been the orchestrated and syndicated nature of some of those residents groups in opposing marches. We saw for a number of years the police caught having to take those decisions; basically, they called a parading decision on the basis of who offered the biggest threat to public order.
That created serious situations, but not just for the individual parades, as it also meant that for a number of summers the political process was transfixed. The talks had to stop in 1996 because of the contentions in and around Drumcree. George Mitchell had to stop the talks in Castle Buildings for two weeks while these matters were dealt with and played themselves out. Policing found itself compromised-decisions were made on the basis not of fairness but of where the biggest threat lay-and politics found itself transfixed.
In 1997 talks took place, and again we had Drumcree in early July. There was a new Government, and Mo Mowlam was the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Because of Drumcree in 1997, Mo Mowlam, in tears and after only two months in office, offered her resignation to the Social and Democratic Labour party leadership-to John Hume, Seamus Mallon and to Brid Rodgers. I was present at the meeting, too.
Dr. McCrea: Surely the hon. Gentleman's speech is proving that the issue of parading has to be dealt with. I find it somewhat ironic and strange that he is telling the House that the Secretary of State offered her resignation to the SDLP instead of to the Prime Minister.
Mark Durkan: To clarify the position for the hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State made it clear at the time that if, because of our anger and concern at how she had handled the Drumcree issue-accepting the recommendation and bowing to the demand of the Chief Constable that a parade be taken down Garvaghy road under the cover of darkness in the early hours of the morning, against all the assurances and promises that she had given-and if the SDLP leadership of John Hume and Seamus Mallon were saying that they could not trust her, she would resign.
However, that was not the only part of the conversation. Mo Mowlam also made it clear that she wanted to make sure that a Secretary of State would never again be put in such a position and that a Chief Constable would never again find himself forced to take a decision on parades because of who represented the biggest threat and what was the best way to end the situation-even though there would be huge fallout in community relations and politically. She felt that she had no choice and that no Secretary of State would have had any choice but to bow to the demand and recommendation from the Chief Constable in that instance-given the terms in which the Chief Constable voiced his recommendation-and that that was no way to decide things. She shared with us the determination to ensure that the issue of parades would be insulated from the vexed issue of policing and from politics.
That is the success of the Parades Commission. Has it got every decision right? No. Has it got every process right, and have its various agents working in different situations always got everything right? No, they have not; but they have broadly succeeded in making sure that politics and policing have been earthed from the convulsions that surround parades.
Mrs. Iris Robinson (Strangford) (DUP): Does the hon. Gentleman agree with me that the Parades Commission and its make-up did not reflect the widespread community in Northern Ireland?
Mark Durkan: I think that the Parades Commission at various times during its broad life has been reflective. There were controversial appointments, including those that nationalists did not like, particularly when attempts were made to put people from the loyal orders into positions. People asked then, "Is that credible? Is that balanced?", but the fact is that, in the round, whatever exceptions people took to its particular decisions or whatever issues people had about particular appointments, the Parades Commission has broadly succeeded in its initial task of defusing the parades situation, which had been becoming ever more serious, partly for the reasons on which the right hon. Member for Belfast, East touched.
Yes, the parades issue was used by Sinn Fein to contrive difficulties and tensions that would lead to wider political stand-offs. It is very easy to stroke prejudice in one community and to stoke prejudice in another, creating a crisis. That is partly what was happening. However, Sinn Fein were not alone in winding people up at that time. Other political leaders were doing the same and were playing into Sinn Fein's hands. One of the successes of the Parades Commission has been to defuse all that potential.
It should be remembered that Sinn Fein did not welcome the Parades Commission. They spent a long time not recognising it, attacking its decisions and attacking its processes. The impression is given that only Unionists have ever had difficulty with the Parades Commission and that it was always going to be a home run for nationalists-it never was. The creation of the Parades Commission meant that politics, in coming to the Good Friday agreement and bearing down on it, was not caught transfixed and hamstrung by having to handle the parades issue. It also meant that the operational capacity of policing was freed from having to make the most awkward calls in relation to parades. The police were having to step in when there was a failure of politics or when an absolute contrivance of confrontation was created. The Parades Commission helped to ensure that the new beginning to policing, as recommended by Patten, was able to bed down. Without the Parades Commission taking decisions on parades, God knows how the new Police Service of Northern Ireland would have worked and how the Policing Board would have coped.
Dr. McCrea: Surely the hon. Gentleman has to accept that on many occasions the Parades Commission made its judgment on the basis of who offered the greatest threat.
Mark Durkan: The Parades Commission made its judgment on the basis of quite a number of issues. Its judgments did not focus only on the right of assembly; it took other things into account. Yes, public order issues were relevant, but it also considered who was making a good effort in terms of engagement and dialogue and who was genuinely open to the concerns of others. [Interruption.] I know that some people dislike those other considerations. [Interruption.] I know that they would prefer the sole right to parade to be the only yardstick by which permission is given.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, and I am the last person to want to take the vivacity out of these exchanges, but sedentary comments are not helpful.
Mark Durkan: I will give way shortly, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It should be remembered, however, that over the years the Parades Commission has produced criteria and considerations that are becoming ever more transparent. Over time, they have developed in ways that have enabled the commission to respond to some of the concerns and criticisms that have been expressed. What we do not know is what will happen if the commission is to go-and DUP Members have made clear that that is their aim: whenever my hon. Friend the Member for South Down suggested that it was the real purpose of the motion, they all said "Hear, hear".
We must ask ourselves whether the objectives and criteria that the Parades Commission have built up will hold any sway in the future. Those who say that the interim recommendations from Lord Ashdown are good, and who just cannot wait for the final report, should ask what Lord Ashdown has said about what weight will be given such considerations in the context of the processes that his review recommends.
Mr. Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): I was tempted to say that the hon. Gentleman had driven by the point that I had intended to make, but as we have had no drive-by vetoes in his remarks so far, I will forgive him for that. Does he accept, however, that those who do not believe that the Parades Commission offers the best solution are often frustrated by the fact that in many instances in which they have made every effort to engage with residents-for example, those in the Portadown district have engaged with everyone and anyone who will talk to them-the commission has given no recognition to their efforts, and that that is part of the frustration felt by those who want to parade and are denied the right to do so?
Mark Durkan: The answer lies in what the right hon. Member for Belfast, East said earlier. He produced statistics showing that the overall number of contentious parades had been greatly reduced. He ended up not just talking about the percentage, but saying that if we get away from the Parades Commission and go with the Ashdown proposals, we would resolve the problem of five parades.
On what basis can we assume that simply implementing the Ashdown proposals will resolve the issue of parades in five areas? How are we to believe that moving away from the Parades Commission will not dangerously reopen issues of parades in other areas that have been broadly resolved thanks to the exhaustive work of the Parades Commission and those who have engaged with it? The idea that we can take everything for granted, and that as long as we adopt the Ashdown proposals those remaining five problems will be solved, is naive in the extreme.
I must take issue with the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael). The idea that the task of handling the vexed issue of parades should be remitted to councils, particularly the new councils that will be created as a result of the review of public administration-they are unknown entities at this stage, and there is as yet no agreement on the governance protections in relation to new councils-is also extremely naive.
There is a danger that those councils will find themselves embroiled in controversies that they did not create or cultivate-when someone else decides to create a parades
dispute. The right hon. Member for Belfast, East produced a quotation from Gerry Adams which made clear that Sinn Fein had deliberately contrived such controversies and cultivated them over time, and the fact is that there are other people out there with the same agenda. Dissidents revealed this year how they were prepared to behave in the Ardoyne. They showed it in a different and perhaps slightly more subtle way in Derry, where they organised, in the guise of an anti-internment demonstration, a counter-demonstration to the Apprentice Boys on the same day in an attempt to create tension and difficulty.
We know that there are people out there whose agenda is to use the parades issue to breathe life into themselves by creating confrontation and tension that will inevitably persuade people to join one side of the stand-off or another. Will those people not be given an incentive to say, "If we can create a difficulty, it will become a problem for the new local council"? It will be a technocratic matter, but those people's propaganda will insist that it is a problem for the political body corporate.
Council officers will not thank anyone-including the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland-for putting them in a position in which they must say "Sorry, Ashdown has come up with this idea, and some officials are agents of the council so they must take the heat whenever contention arises, because we wash our hands of it." It would be awful if politicians contrived that situation, only to step aside and allow other public officials to take the blame. Council officers might be put in the position in which the police have found themselves in the past.
Mr. Robinson: I am not sure where the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) are getting the idea that somehow district councils will find themselves having to resolve disputes. That is not the role that Ashdown has given them. The hon. Gentleman would do well either to read the interim report or to wait until the final report has been published before jumping to conclusions. It is clear that councils have been given an administrative role involving dealing with non-contentious parades. If a parade is deemed to be contentious by any person objecting to it, it will move to a different stage.
Mark Durkan: I am afraid that I disagree with that interpretation. What we are creating is a licence and an incentive for people to make things contentious. An issue that will be non-contentious in one year will become contentious in another, and that will put officers in an invidious position. It will be assumed that what was agreed last year with X personnel in such and such a group stands for this year as well. When that new contention is created, the political problem will arise of why that has happened. There are enough examples of its happening in other areas involving council officers, and it has involved civil servants in central Government Departments as well.
I recall civil servants engaging in entirely good faith with different community groups involved in contentious issues during my time in the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in relation to north Belfast and Holy Cross, and I know exactly the sort of difficulties that are created as people reinterpret what they said. They say, "We did not say that it was non-contentious.
We had particular concerns and set down conditions that have been forgotten, and we ended up with officials giving very different accounts of the meetings that they had from those given by the people with whom they engaged." There is a danger of that happening at council level.
There is also the proposal that the OFMDFM should have a role in appointing panels if the issue is contentious. Again, we are being told that that will not be done by a political wing of the OFMDFM, but by the bureaucratic administrative technocratic wing. The fact is, however, that people will decide that they can have a premium crisis if they create contention in relation to a parade that then involves the appointment of a panel by OFMDFM. As far as they are concerned, they potentially have the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister where they want them: caught in relation to a controversial and contentious parades issue. There is the danger in that of paralysing that office and compromising people within the office, and there is also the danger of going back to the days when the political process was transfixed and caught, as different parties had to rally to either side of a local parade stand-off.
We need to see the dangers in this. An exaggerated case has been made against the Parades Commission when all the evidence of the improved environment of parades shows that it has broadly been working. I agree that it can be improved. All sorts of adjustments can be made and we need to make them, and we must also learn all sorts of lessons and move forward, but the idea that we can simply dispose of the Parades Commission for an untried, untested alternative, which other people with very destructive and malign agendas will test, is a dangerous idea.
The undertone to this debate is that moving in the suggested direction is somehow a precondition or requirement for the devolution of justice and policing. The right hon. Member for Belfast, East earlier seemed to be warning Sinn Fein about creating linkages around the issue of parades and the devolution of justice and policing. The warning equally applies to the Democratic Unionist party. We cross the wires of politics and parades at our peril. The construct of the Parades Commission was all about making sure that we separated the highly charged wires of policing, parades and politics. It is important, in everybody's interests, that we keep them separate.
8.30 pm
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