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Mr. Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP):
I welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate. The hon. Members for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and for South Down (Mr. McGrady) referred to the need to retain the Parades Commission and talked about its success. I beg to differ with that assessment. I do not count it a success that in Northern Ireland today we still need commissions to make decisions for us on the basis that we lack the maturity to make them ourselves. I do not count it a success that the Social Democratic and Labour party's vision of the future is that local politicians cannot sit down together and work out local problems in local areas, but that they have to rely on commissions. The days of SDLP crutches propping up the difficulties in our community should be put behind us. If we can sit
in government in Stormont dealing with the big issues of the day, why can we not deal with these issues? Is that not the political maturity we want in Northern Ireland?
Is it not time that we kicked aside the crutches of the commissions that have been propping up our community for years, and instead started to deal with the contentious issues that confront us? After all, the SDLP will tell us time and again that the template for success in Northern Ireland is the Belfast agreement, and the Belfast agreement talks about tolerance and respect. I understood that tolerance was about tolerating things we do not necessarily like, because tolerance is not about tolerating things we like. The kind of society we want in Northern Ireland is one not where the Orangemen are restricted to walking in Downpatrick on the one day of the year when they are permitted to walk there, but where they can, perhaps, hold a parade on another day when they will be welcomed and can express their culture in a society that demonstrates tolerance, and where it is not a question of whether they live in the town or come from a few miles outside it. If people want to express their culture, they have the right to do so and those who do not necessarily accept that culture tolerate that right. That is the mark of a mature society.
Mr. Donaldson: I fear that the kind of society the SDLP talks about is a society where there is continued division and continued segregation and that it is about, "Our territory and your territory, and you stay in your territory and we'll stay in ours, and ne'er the twain shall meet." That kind of segregation is not the mark of the Northern Ireland we want for the future-the SDLP as the segregated, democratic and labour party? That is certainly not what we want. We in the DUP want to see a united Northern Ireland. That is our vision: to remove the divisions within our country.
Mark Durkan: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Donaldson: No, I will not give way. The hon. Member had 20 minutes to speak. We on this side will have less time, and I want to take the full opportunity to say what I have to say.
Segregation is not the way forward in Northern Ireland. Dividing up our society is not the way forward. Territorialism is not the way forward. A shared future is what we want; that is what the DUP wants. That is what we are working towards achieving in Stormont. That is what we are working to achieve throughout Northern Ireland-and, yes, it would be nice if that were recognised from time to time. Irish nationalism talks, in the constitution of the 26 counties of the Republic, about cherishing all the people of the nation equally. Why do I feel at times rather uncherished by Irish nationalism?
I should have declared an interest at the beginning of my remarks: I am a member of the Orange Institution and the Royal Black Institution, which are marching orders in Northern Ireland. I am proud to be a member of those institutions, and I believe that it is fundamental to a society that tolerates, that respects and that upholds human rights that people have the right to pursue their culture, uphold their identity and pursue the public expression of their religious beliefs without being interfered with and without the threat of violence.
With the greatest respect to the SDLP Members, may I say that the mark of the Parades Commission has been the very thing that they have criticised? The commission has been about giving in to the greater threat of violence, as has been seen time and again. The hon. Member for Foyle talked about the Parades Commission rewarding good behaviour, yet on so many occasions that has not been the approach that it has taken. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) will discuss the situation in Portadown. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) made clear, that district has been engaged in dialogue with all groups and all types of people. It had been told, "There is no walking unless you talk." It has talked and talked to whoever will listen, yet still it is not allowed to walk. Why is that? It is because we are allowing narrow-minded hatred and bigotry to prevent the creation of the kind of society that we want in Northern Ireland, which is one based on tolerance and respect, not segregation. I know that the hon. Member for South Down was well intentioned in what he said, but he talked about my rights being permitted and that is precisely the wrong approach to take to the situation in Northern Ireland. Surely what we want is consensus and people coming together to agree; we do not want a situation in which people say, "We own this territory. This is nationalist territory. If you want to walk in it, you need our permission." [Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I appeal for no sedentary comments to be made, and I address that remark to the whole House. A number of hon. Members are hoping to make their own contributions. I cannot compel hon. Members to take interventions or otherwise, but I hope that there will be no sedentary reaction.
Mr. Donaldson: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was outlining why we believe that, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East made clear, the Parades Commission has become part of the problem, not the solution. The fact that the situation of a number of parades remains unresolved 10 or 12 years or more after its creation testifies to the reality that it has failed to deal with those issues. We believe that one of its fundamental flaws is that it is a body of arbitration. We need processes that deal with mediation, with the facilitation of discussion and with local agreements being reached. We are not getting that from the Parades Commission-it has failed in its remit in that respect and has largely become a body of arbitration. That is not the way in which to build a society where there is tolerance and respect. If we are to create the kind of society envisioned by the authors of the Good Friday/Belfast agreement-call it what one may-we do not just need to see lip service paid to those high principles and objectives; we need to see practical attitudes adopted, changes in attitude and people not being disparaging about parades on 12 July. It is a shame that the hon. Member for South Down would not take it upon himself some year to come to the 12 July parade in Belfast, so that he could see for himself the pageantry and the colour.
Mr. McGrady: I have no problem with viewing the tourist attractions of the 12 July parades, be they in Downpatrick or Belfast, and I support local industry. I have never received an invitation to the Belfast parades, but where would I stand? Would it be in the Ormeau road or somewhere else?
Mr. Donaldson: We might even get the hon. Gentleman a place on the platform. I will ensure that he is issued with an invitation to the 12 July parades; I am sure that the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Dr. McDonnell), who is not here today but who is a contender for the leadership of his party, will be able to find a suitable location for the hon. Member for South Down to view the parade going up the Lisburn road on its way to the field.
It is that kind of engagement that we want to promote. Unfortunately, ignorance sometimes breeds mistrust, and it can lead to the sort of misunderstandings that result in the confrontation that we have seen in the past. The loyal orders have made real efforts to reach out. They have looked at how their parades are presented and how people regard them. Those efforts have to be recognised.
It was disappointing that we did not hear any recognition of that effort from the SDLP. The hon. Member for Foyle will be aware of the efforts by the Apprentice Boys of Londonderry, for example, to reach out across the community.
Mark Durkan: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way this time. I wanted to intervene on this point earlier, because he seemed to suggest that our approach was based on territorialism. I totally opposed Martin McGuinness when he said in response to the Garvaghy road incidents of 1996 that the Apprentice Boys should not be allowed to march on the west bank of Derry. I said that they would always have the right to march there, and that was one of the things that helped to create the dialogue that has led to the much improved situation in respect of several Apprentice Boys parades in Derry.
Mr. Donaldson: Let me be the first to acknowledge the role that the hon. Gentleman has played in promoting dialogue in his home city. However, my point is that it is not good enough to have that dialogue in one area only, as we need to promote it across Northern Ireland. Moreover, it was not the Parades Commission that brought about the success in Londonderry, but local leadership. That is precisely why the model proposed by Lord Ashdown is right: it promotes local leadership, dialogue and solutions, and that is what we want. That is the kind of mature society that we are aiming for-the political maturity that comes with the shared future that is our objective in Northern Ireland.
I want to end with a question that I hope that the Minister will be able to respond to when he winds up the debate. Representations have been made to me about the chairperson of the Parades Commission, and he will be aware that when she was appointed she made a number of claims about the qualifications that made her eligible for the position. Some doubts are now being cast on those qualifications, and questions have been asked of the Northern Ireland Office about them that I hope that the Minister will be able to answer. Are they valid? I cannot verify that to be the case, but it is my duty as a public representative to ensure that a person who chairs such an important and sensitive body, and who is involved in very sensitive work, is transparent before the public.
We need to know all the qualifications that the chairperson of the Parades Commission put on her CV when she applied for the post. Were they validated by
the Northern Ireland Office when the appointment was made? I hope that the Minister will be able to address that point in his response.
8.43 pm
Dr. William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I am finding the debate interesting already, and I am sure that my colleagues are anxious to make a contribution to it. I listened to the opening remarks by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael), and I assure him that my constituents have a great interest in ensuring that the economy, the health service and many other bread-and-butter issues are attended to with vigour. Those matters are devolved to the devolved Administration in Northern Ireland. My right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson), the leader of my party and First Minister of Northern Ireland, was right to say that they are constantly raised in the Executive. They will certainly be attended to on behalf of our constituents.
However, one matter relevant to the peace and stability of our beloved Province remains the responsibility of this House-the thorny issue of the right to parade without threats or intimidation, and free from republican agitation. This issue must be faced. We heard an interesting contribution from the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) reminding us that as it was the Queen's highway, we had no right to walk it, but we had permission to walk it. I am happy to get that permission from Her Majesty. I hope the hon. Gentleman will always remember that, and always apply for permission to walk the Queen's highway. I can assure him that those whom we are speaking about, who seek the right to walk the Queen's highway, do so in honour and in support of Her Majesty.
I am glad to have the opportunity to address the House on a very sensitive yet very important issue that impacts greatly on the people of Northern Ireland. I declare an interest. I was brought up outside a little town, Stewartstown, in the heart of the Mid-Ulster constituency. I was raised in a family that was connected with the Orange Institution. My father was the master of the local lodge and I was proud to walk by his side. I declare an interest: I am a member of the Orange Institution, of the Royal Black Institution and of the Apprentice Boys of Londonderry. I am proud to have the privilege of that membership.
In all the years that I have walked as a member of those institutions and the lodges, I did so not to give offence to anyone, and we certainly did not desire offence from anyone, either. Sadly, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East pointed out, Gerry Adams was recorded as having admitted that for years, before the situation happened at Drumcree or in Pomeroy or in other parts of the Province, Sinn Fein and the republican movement had been stirring up an anti-loyalist parade fervour, not because the community dissented from parades-many nationalists throughout Northern Ireland have been happy to watch the parades.
I was disappointed that the hon. Member for South Down had missed so much of his life by not coming out and watching a parade. He did not need to come to Belfast. If permission was given to walk the highway in Downpatrick, he could see a colourful parade there. That would do his heart good.
Mr. McGrady: In my comments to the House, I said that the Orange parade takes place every 12 July-13 July this year-in Downpatrick, and I do see it.
Dr. McCrea: I am happy that the hon. Gentleman has acknowledged that. When I was listening earlier, I confess that I thought that in his years of public life, he had missed the happy occasion of watching the parades in the South Down area.
As I was pointing out, the local community did not dissent from the parades. But blatant sectarianism stirred up by a group of people in Northern Ireland. Gerry Adams admitted that he and his grouping were at the heart of that. That is what brought the anti-parades sentiment to a head. It is clear that right from the beginning, the campaign was engineered and moved from an isolated incident to different areas of the Province, thereby unnecessarily dividing and unsettling the community.
Sinn Fein created a monster that they do not have the power to contain, although they do not acknowledge that. They were happy to stir up the anti-parade fervour whenever it suited them, but my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) knows that they now seem to be saying that they do not have the power to stop the agitation. They created the monster that is in our society, but now they are not able to capture and quieten it.
Since that time, republican opposition to loyal order parades has been a running sore. It must be settled. The issue is fundamental to freedom and must be addressed and resolved. Over the years the Democratic Unionist party has campaigned for confidence-building measures among the Unionist community to face the onslaught of more than 30 years of IRA terrorism.
One of those issues is the issue on the Order Paper tonight. Solving the problems that have been associated with parades is a fundamental prerequisite to political progress and stability in Northern Ireland. Sad to say that over the years, successive Governments have yielded to the threats of those who have opposed our parades. It was easier for them to give in, rather than to stand up and give the law-abiding people of Northern Ireland their rights to parade Her Majesty's highway.
Let us think about the situation in Drumcree. We have a traditional parade. I listened carefully to what the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said, because he tried to say that we were bringing parades into areas where they were not welcome, but such parades were traditional and were welcomed for many, many years, going back 20, 30, 40, 50 or even more years. However, because of deliberate agitation, the traditional parade was taken from the Orange brethren and sisters and regarded as a contentious parade. It is sad to say that instead of dealing with the situation, the Parades Commission as a body-I know many individual members of the commission, and many of their efforts in this regard have been well-meaning-took the easy option whenever the objectors to a parade were showing muscle, as it were.
In Maghera, a neighbourhood near where I lived, the Orangemen re-routed their parade to keep the procession away from any disorder from the objectors. What did we find? The commission yielded to the threats and intimidation. That is a totally unacceptable position. It is now a reality that the commission is not part of the solution, it is part of the problem.
I want to allow my hon. Friends to take part in this debate. However, I must first make it abundantly clear to the Government tonight that although they, and the Prime Minister, have put a lot of effort into policing and justice issues, and although I acknowledge the Prime Minister's effort, time and energy on the financial side-we will make a determination on that, as I am sure others will-parading is not a stand-alone issue. The issues of building community confidence will not go away. Parading is one of the issues that must be addressed and attended to. It is a case of acknowledging not only that there is a problem, but that there must be a resolution of the problem, so that when Orange brethren walk the streets of Northern Ireland, they do so without threats and intimidation.
It was very sad that recently in Rasharkin, we saw, standing among those who are supposed to be dissident republicans, the very members of Sinn Fein. They were standing in the crowd whenever there was violent opposition to the Orangemen walking in the town of Rasharkin. There has to be acknowledgment that the Orangemen and Orangewomen are a part of Northern Ireland's community. They have a proud tradition and also a proud culture. That must be recognised. Some people seek, by threats and intimidation, to remove what is termed the "Orange feet" from the road, but the Government must realise, as the other parties must, that the Orangemen and Orangewomen are not leaving the Province. We are here to stay. Parading is a vital part of our Province.
A village neighbouring mine is more than 95 per cent. Unionist, yet there is a Hibernian parade. There is absolutely no problem with that parade, because if people do not go out to see it, they have the freedom of having their tea in their kitchen or they can sit in comfort with their own family, but they are not bothering anyone. Why can the rest of our community not live and let live, and allow us to have a peaceful and stable society, where we can bring prosperity for everyone in the Province that we love?
8.54 pm
Mrs. Iris Robinson (Strangford) (DUP): Belatedly, I wish to pull up the hon. Members for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and for South Down (Mr. McGrady) for their lecturing of right hon. and hon. Members on this side of the Chamber about consultation and inclusion. Back in 1985, their party was happy to ignore 1 million Protestants and their elected representatives and push through the infamous Anglo-Irish agreement, which I believe was the beginning of our troubled history. Their leader at the time, John Hume, when asked why Unionist views were not sought, said that
"they wouldn't have accepted it."
There are no contentious parades in the constituency I represent. While I do not wish to be contentious, it is my duty to put on record how we arrived at the difficult scenario that throws up scenes of agitation and violence at parades that, until the outbreak of our troubles, passed off peacefully and were attended by both Protestants and Catholics. My colleagues and I want to see a day when Catholics and Protestants can celebrate the great pageant of 12 July together. That was the case when I was a young girl growing up in Belfast, and I hope that those days will return.
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