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There is obviously a sensitivity with regard to the CAG's remuneration and other expenses, given that his role is to identify waste in public spending. Therefore, it seems right that he should be assessed with great scrutiny.
He should lead the way in moves towards scrutiny of public spending, which should include spending relating to him.
If we have time-time is short again today-I hope we can have a longer debate on the wider issue of the transparency of public spending when we discuss part 8 of the Bill, but to ensure that the CAG is above suspicion, such information should be in the public domain.
Mr. Alan Williams: The CAG already submits his expenses to me as Chairman of the commission and publishes them on a six-monthly basis which, we are assured, goes further than for any other public servant. He is therefore already ahead of the game elsewhere in Whitehall.
Mr. Gauke: The Father of the House makes a good point-the CAG is further ahead. On the whole, we believe there should be greater transparency in public spending, and the CAG could be yet further ahead. I accept that he submits expenses to the Father of the House in his role as Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission, but by putting them in the public domain we would prevent any repetition of what happened with Sir John Bourn, even though such information goes into the public domain every six months.
Our proposal is a matter of going further. As a rule, we think information on how public money is spent should be in the public domain and published online. The CAG in particular needs to be above suspicion.
To avoid-I hope-the need for a separate stand part debate, clause 40 states:
"P's package is to be determined jointly by the Prime Minister and the"
"of the Committee of Public Accounts before the start of the appointment."
There is a great deal of flexibility within the clause, which is welcome and sensible, because there are dangers in being too prescriptive, depending on the nature of the CAG candidate. However, we are lucky enough to have the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee in the Chamber, and perhaps he is in a position to say something further on the thinking behind the package. For example, there has been talk about linking it to the salary of the Treasury permanent secretary or the Lord Chief Justice. Historically, there was a link with High Court judges. We have to recognise that we want to get the right person, and pay in the private sector for audit work has increased substantially over the past 20 or 30 years or so. If the CAG is not paid enough, it will have a knock-on effect on everyone else working in the NAO. It is important to get the figure right so that we get the right people.
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It is also right that no performance-related pay is included. It was recommended by the Tiner review, but it could lead to some sort of influence being put on the CAG. The proposals do everything they can to preserve the independence of the CAG and that is welcome. Subject to those queries, we have no objection to the clause, other than to say that it would be strengthened by amendment 57 to put on a statutory basis the publication online of details of the remuneration, allowances and other expenses of the CAG.
Mr. Leigh: I am fairly relaxed about amendment 57. The CAG publishes details already of all his expenses and allowances. The commission had a discussion about the pay. It is true that traditionally the CAG has received the same salary as a High Court judge. We did not think that that was appropriate any more, because that is fixed and, in order to get a very high-calibre candidate, it might be necessary to pay more than that. When we put in the advertisement, we said that the package would be broadly in the permanent secretary range. That is an attractive salary, and it is useful to do it that way, because permanent secretaries are paid between £140,000 and £230,000 a year.
There was some discussion about whether we should link the pay to that of the Lord Chief Justice. Personally, I liked that idea, because I am convinced-having done my job for eight years-of the very great importance of the CAG. It would have sent a message if we had made that link, but I suspect that the Treasury was not entirely happy with that. So we reached a compromise. It is not necessary for me to say in Committee what the CAG actually earns-it is published, it is a good salary and we got a high-calibre candidate.
Finally, it is important that the CAG, like permanent secretaries, should not be subject to appraisal by anybody and he should not receive any bonuses. The best approach is the one that we have taken-with the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee working with the Prime Minister to set a good salary at the level of a permanent secretary. Let us stick to that. It can go up every year by inflation, but no bonuses should be paid and no appraisal made. That is part of the CAG's independence.
Mr. Dunne: I support amendment 57. It is obviously ironic that Members should be talking about the pay and rations of others today, but in this case it is appropriate for the individual who will be the primary custodian of probity in public finance to be prepared to show the way in terms of transparency about pay and rations. We are all acutely aware of the increased transparency that will apply to public figures paid from the public purse, who will have to make that information available. For the CAG to lead the way will set a good example to others in the public sector and will make his job easier. For all those reasons, this is an appropriate amendment.
Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Of course, we share everybody's wishes for greater transparency, and, as has been said by many Members, the CAG has been leading the way on that. At an administrative level, the NAO already provides for advance approval of the CAG's expenses by a non-executive member of its audit committee, with recourse to the Public Accounts Commission if necessary. Expenses are discussed with the chairman of the NAO audit committee in advance, and the CAG expenses follow, as far as possible, permanent secretary rules. In addition, since 2007, the expenses and hospitality records of all NAO senior managers, including the CAG, have been published on its websites for each six-month period. We welcome that commitment to transparency.
The CAG's remuneration package is set before he takes office and then has effect for the full term of office, subject only to uprating, which is permitted, but only in line with a predetermined formula. As was mentioned, the current range for a civil service permanent secretary is fairly wide-a minimum of £140,000 to a
maximum of £273,000. In the interests of transparency, I have no objection to saying that Mr. Morse is being paid £210,000 per annum, which is mid-range. The CAG's remuneration is reported in the NAO annual report and accounts. Given that it will change only once a year, in line with the annual uprating formula, I see no great advantage in requiring the NAO to report each month on the salary.
The other information that hon. Members wish to be published is available already on the NAO website, albeit only six-monthly, not monthly. I think that six months is fine, given that there has to be advance approval for it, so I do not think that the amendment is necessary. I ask the hon. Gentleman to consider withdrawing it.
Mr. Gauke: I am grateful to the Minister for providing the information about the current CAG. Given that he was previously a partner at PricewaterhouseCoopers, I suspect that he has taken a substantial pay cut to perform this role. Nothing I say is meant to suggest that Mr. Morse has acted improperly. However, given that we are legislating on the set-up for the CAG, it would be helpful to specify on a statutory basis what the CAG should do. That point should apply more widely within the public sector. Rightly, it now applies to Members of the House. It would improve the structure and lead the way, and it would not cause any harm or unwarranted embarrassment to the CAG. I seek, therefore, to press the amendment to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
The Committee proceeded to a Division.
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sylvia Heal): I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.
The Committee divided: Ayes 201, Noes 274.
AYES
Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, Danny
Amess, Mr. David
Ancram, rh Mr. Michael
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr. John
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bottomley, Peter
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brake, Tom
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Browning, Angela
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Butterfill, Sir John
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clegg, rh Mr. Nick
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Curry, rh Mr. David
Davey, Mr. Edward
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh David
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dodds, Mr. Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M.
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Duddridge, James
Duncan, Alan
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Foster, Mr. Don
Fraser, Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
George, Andrew
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harvey, Nick
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heath, Mr. David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holmes, Paul
Horam, Mr. John
Horwood, Martin
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, David
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Kramer, Susan
Laing, Mrs. Eleanor
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Laws, Mr. David
Leech, Mr. John
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Maclean, rh David
Main, Anne
Maude, rh Mr. Francis
McCrea, Dr. William
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moore, Mr. Michael
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, David
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Öpik, Lembit
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Penning, Mike
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, Dr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Reid, Mr. Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, rh Mr. Peter
Rosindell, Andrew
Rowen, Paul
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Smith, Chloe
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Stanley, rh Sir John
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr. Edward
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Sir Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Webb, Steve
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Ann
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Philip Dunne and
Jeremy Wright
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Byrne, rh Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank
Cooper, Rosie
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Dai
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Doran, Mr. Frank
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Farrelly, Paul
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, rh John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, rh Dr. Kim
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, rh Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, rh Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Mackinlay, Andrew
Mactaggart, Fiona
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCartney, rh Mr. Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr. Pat
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, rh Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, rh James
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reid, rh John
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Ryan, rh Joan
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Seabeck, Alison
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Ussher, Kitty
Vaz, rh Keith
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Wills, rh Mr. Michael
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Dr. Tony
Tellers for the Noes:
Helen Jones and
Mr. Bob Blizzard
Question accordingly negatived.
Clause 40 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 41 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
David Howarth: I beg to move amendment 29, page 20, line 33, leave out 'specified person' and insert 'Advisory Committee on Public Appointments'.
The First Deputy Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: amendment 30, page 20, line 35, leave out subsection (3).
Amendment 31, page 20, line 36, leave out subsection (4).
David Howarth: The amendments relate to discrepancies between the contents of the Bill and the Public Accounts Commission report. I want to give the Government an opportunity to explain the difference between the two.
Amendments 29 and 30 are simply about who is to be consulted before the Comptroller and Auditor General is allowed to undertake any further employment after the end of his period in office. The commission said that the Advisory Committee on Public Appointments had to be consulted, whereas the Bill says that some "specified person" who will be
"specified from time to time by the Commission"
must be consulted. The Bill is therefore less specific than the recommendation from the commission.
Clearly, the provision is important, and public confidence in the office of Comptroller and Auditor General must be maintained. It is possible for conflicts of interest apparently to arise in almost any sort of future employment-not just in organisations previously subject to the audit powers of the Comptroller and Auditor General, to which the rest of the clause applies, but those in the private sector. My first question is "Why has that change been made?"
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