Schedule
3The
Young People’s Learning Agency for
England
Jim
Knight: I beg to move amendment 319, in schedule 3,
page 155, leave out lines 3 to 12 and
insert— ‘(a) between 6 and
16 members appointed by the Secretary of State (the “ordinary
members”), and (b) the
chief executive of the
YPLA. (2) The Secretary of
State must appoint one of the ordinary members to chair the
YPLA.’. This
amendment changes the requirements for the appointment of members of
the YPLA other than the chief executive. The effect of the amendment is
that these members will always be appointed by the Secretary of
State.
The
Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the
following: amendment 121, in schedule 3,
page 155, line 5, at end
insert— ‘(d) at least one
principal or governor of a further education college,
and (e) at least one principal
or governor of a sixth form
college.’. Government
amendments 320, 321, 330, 331 and 333.
Jim
Knight: Amendment 319 changes the requirements for the
appointment of members of the YPLA, other than the chief executive,
with the effect that such members will always be appointed by the
Secretary of State, and amendments 320 and 321 are consequential to
that change. Amendments 330 and 331 provide that the chief executive
will be an employee of the YPLA, and amendment 332 provides for the
YPLA to determine the conditions of service of members of staff, other
than the chief executive, with the Secretary of State’s
approval. Those changes are largely technical in nature, will ensure a
strong line of accountability for the role, tenure and responsibility
of the board members and the chief executive, and will achieve greater
consistency with similar provisions in the Bill relating to the
Qualifications and Curriculum Development
Agency.
Mr.
Laws: Did the Minister say that the amendments were just
technical? Surely, some of them will have quite a serious
impact.
Jim
Knight: I said that they are largely technical in nature,
but also that they ensure a strong line of accountability. They are
important, otherwise we would not make them, but they are sufficiently
technical to allow me to be brief.
Having said
that, I shall say a little more about amendment 121, tabled by the hon.
Gentleman. I think that I understand the intention behind the
amendment, but provision has been made for the matter that it deals
with elsewhere in the Bill. In the White Paper, we made the commitment
that the YPLA will be a sector-led body, the governance of which will
include representatives of key delivery partners. Paragraph 2(5) of
schedule 3
states: “In
appointing a person as a member, the Secretary of State or the YPLA
must have regard to the desirability of appointing a person who has
experience relevant to any of the YPLA’s
functions.” That
would include representations from further education and sixth-form
colleges, and other relevant organisations, such as local authorities
and academies, in respect of the various functions that the YPLA will
perform. As the board will have between five and 15 members, there is
ample flexibility to ensure that key partners have a place at the
table. However, our priority must be to ensure that we have the right
calibre of board members, not to set quotas from particular
sectors.
Mr.
Laws: Hopefully my question will enable me to shorten my
speech later. Will the Minister clarify his comments in which he
appeared to indicate that there would be a place on the board for
individuals representing the different sectors, academies, colleges and
so forth? How much of an undertaking was that? Towards the end of his
comments, he appeared to veer away from that, towards an indication
that it would simply be based on an assessment of ability, and that
therefore there might not necessarily be representatives of each sector
on the
board.
Jim
Knight: As ever, with board appointments, it is important
to ensure that the board has the skills necessary to do its job. First
and foremost, it is responsible for making appointments. Above and
beyond the skills and competences required to be a board member, we
have
signalled, through paragraph 2(5), that we want to ensure that the board
is broadly representative of the bodies relevant to the
organisation’s functions. On that basis, I hope that the hon.
Gentleman’s speech will be short and that he will not press his
amendment to a
Division.
Mr.
Laws: I am grateful to the Minister for his comments on
amendment 121. I shall not labour my point too heavily, because I hope
that he and those involved in selecting the YPLA board will think it
obvious that somebody from the sector highlighted in the amendment
should be represented. However, I hope that, in his final comments, he
will be a little warmer, cheerier and more positive about ensuring that
further education and sixth-form colleges are represented on the board.
Although I appreciate that it is important that individuals selected
for the board have the ability to “do the job”, as the
Minister put it, it is difficult to believe that it would not be
possible to select somebody from those sectors with exactly those
skills and abilities.
The Minister
will know that the colleges sector is concerned to ensure that it is
represented properly on this body, and that its interests and
legitimate concerns are taken into account as the machinery of
Government changes takes place. Although the Minister commented on the
current drafting of the schedule regarding the composition of the
board, the undertakings were rather general and did not offer the type
of assurance that I am looking for.
[Interruption.] I wonder whether that noise comes
from the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings.
I turn from
amendment 121 and the background bleeping to make some comments on
Government amendment 319, if that is in order. I thought that the
Minister said that the amendments in this group were somewhat
technical. Perhaps he could confirm that. In my vocabulary,
“technical” normally refers to fairly minor provisions
that Opposition Members do not need to pay much attention to. However,
the amendments in this group seem slightly more fundamental.
Unless I have
misunderstood it, amendment 319 appears to represent a significant
change from what is currently in schedule 3, lines 10 to 12 on page
155. It seems to give enhanced powers to the Secretary of State
regarding the appointment of future members and chief executives of the
board. There must be a reason why the Government have made that type of
proposal, which appears to tighten the grip of the Secretary of State
on the board of the YPLA. I am willing to hear the arguments for that
tighter grip before making a judgment about whether it is justified,
but it would be useful to hear something about why the Government have
changed their mind since the original drafting of the Bill, and why
they have decided to give themselves increased powers in respect of
amendment 319 and the others in the group.
Jim
Knight: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his
assiduous scrutiny. On his last point about the powers of the Secretary
of State, the Government amendment will ensure that all members of the
YPLA board, not just the first chief executive, are appointed by the
Secretary of State. It is a necessary amendment required as a result of
advice from the Cabinet Office
that appointments should be made by the Secretary of State. That is so
that the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments can
regulate it. It also ensures consistency with the membership provisions
for the QCDA elsewhere in the Bill, and essentially ensures proper
regulation of the appointments through that
route.
Mr.
Laws: Is the Minister saying that it would not be possible
for the Government to implement what was originally in the schedule
because of the rules and regulations? Without labouring the point,
although this is described as technical, it is an important change.
Under the original provisions in the Bill, future chief executives and
ordinary members could potentially be selected by the YPLA on terms
determined by it with the approval of the Secretary of State. Now that
will not be possible. I seek clarification on that
point.
The
Chairman: Order. There is a Division in the House. It is
obvious that the Committee wishes to carry on its deliberations. I
propose that we suspend the sitting until 8
pm.
7
pm Sitting
suspended. 8
pm On
resuming—
Mr.
Laws: I think I was bringing my comments on the amendment
to a close and inviting the Minister to give further reassurance on the
representation of further education colleges and sixth-form colleges on
the YPLA board. I invited him to acknowledge that there will be more
than enough people in that sector who have what he described as the
ability to do the job. I also invited him to say more about why
amendment 319 and the related amendments had to be tabled by the
Government. Was it a requirement that the Bill team and the Minister
stumbled upon or does it represent a more fundamental reassessment of
how much of a vice-like grip the Minister and the Secretary of State
want to exercise on the independence of the
YPLA?
Jim
Knight: I am grateful for that reminder of the invitations
the hon. Gentleman issued prior to dinner. On membership, I cannot
conceive that it would be possible for the board to do its job properly
if it did not have proper representation from the FE sector, academies
and the other sectors that it is concerned with. I hope that that is
sufficient
reassurance. I
have reminded myself of the reasons we decided to make the board
members Secretary of State appointments in amendment 319 over the tort
and bolognaise I enjoyed for dinner. This is the
South-Holland-and-The-Deepings moment when I inform the Committee of my
consumption. We made the change to get the right balance of autonomy
and accountability. We want to ensure that the Secretary of State has
confidence in the figures who will be accountable for £7 billion
of public money. Crucially, only Secretary of State appointments are
regulated by the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments.
It is important that that regulation is in place to assure the public
that the appointments are above board and beyond
suspicion. Mr.
Laws: Is the Minister saying that we cannot trust members
of the YPLA board to appoint members and chief executives? That appears
to be the implication. As it stands, is the Bill consistent with the
way in which any other bodies that are overseen by his Department
appoint their ordinary members and senior
officers?
Jim
Knight: I would trust the board in the same way that I
would trust Ministers to make the right appointments in a way that is
beyond suspicion. However, we established the Office of the
Commissioner for Public Appointments to ensure that the process is
beyond doubt for the public. It is right that the appointments to a
body that is responsible for £7 billion of public money have
that level of public scrutiny. On that basis, I hope that the hon.
Gentleman will not press amendment
121.
Mr.
Laws: I am grateful to the Minister for both replies. I am
very pleased with his response on amendment 121. I will
chalk that up as a triumph and an important concession that I hope will
be reflected in future
boards. I
am not as convinced by the explanation of the Government amendments.
Rather than being technical amendments, it seems that they would put
back into the hands of Ministers the power to determine all the board
members for the Young People’s Learning Agency rather than
allowing the YPLA itself to select those individuals in the future.
There seems to have been something of a change of heart and mind by
Ministers on the matter, which as far as I can establish goes beyond
what is absolutely
necessary.
Mr.
Gibb: Does the hon. Gentleman not consider that there
comes a point at which Ministers who are accountable to the public for
delivering a quality of service need to have the powers to deliver what
they promised in their
manifesto?
Mr.
Laws: I agree with the hon. Gentleman, but there is no
reason why there could not be provision under schedule 3 for there to
be intervention when the individuals were acting in an improper way or
were not consistent with the Government’s policy. Indeed, under
schedule 3 the terms of the appointments have to meet with the approval
of the Secretary of State. I regret that the Government have gone back
on the issue, but I have registered the Minister’s arguments and
we will mull over the matter and consider whether we want to return to
it. Amendment
319 agreed
to. Amendments
made: 320, in schedule 3, page 155, line 13,
leave out second ‘a’ and insert ‘an
ordinary’. The effect
of this amendment is that the requirement in paragraph 2(5)
of Schedule 3 will apply only to the members of the YPLA other than the
chief
executive. 321,
in
schedule 3, page 155, line 13, leave
out ‘or the YPLA’.—(Jim
Knight.) This amendment
is consequential on amendment 319.
Jim
Knight: I beg to move amendment 322, in schedule 3,
page 155, line 17, leave out
‘members of the YPLA’ and insert ‘chair and other
ordinary
members’.
The
Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss
Government amendments 323, 324, 325,
326.
Jim
Knight: The amendments make changes to the governance of
the YPLA. Amendments 322 to 325 restrict the application of paragraph 3
of schedule 3, which is concerned with tenure, to members of the YPLA
other than the chief executive. Amendment 326 has the effect that the
chief executive will be an ex officio member of the YPLA
board.
Mr.
Gibb: Will the Minister explain what the tenure would be
of ordinary
members?
Jim
Knight: That is a pertinent question. Obviously, the
measures do not apply to the chief executive who will be an ex officio
member of the board, but for all other board members the tenure will
normally be three
years. Amendment
322 agreed
to. Amendments
made: 323, in schedule 3, page 155,
line 20, leave out ‘A member of the YPLA’
and insert ‘The chair and other ordinary
members’. See
Member’s explanatory statement for amendment
322. 324,
in
schedule 3, page 155, line 22, leave
out ‘a member of the YPLA’ and insert ‘an ordinary
member’. See
Member’s explanatory statement for amendment
322. 325,
in
schedule 3, page 155, line 27, leave
out ‘a member of the YPLA’ and insert ‘the chair
or another ordinary
member’. See
Member’s explanatory statement for amendment
322. 326,
in
schedule 3, page 155, line 28, at
end insert— ‘(5) If the
chair ceases to be an ordinary member, the person also ceases to be the
chair.’.—(Jim
Knight.) This
amendment provides for a member of the YPLA who is also its chair to
cease to be the chair on ceasing to be a
member.
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