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Session 2008 - 09 Publications on the internet General Committee Debates Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill |
The Committee consisted of the following Members:Chris Shaw, James Davies,
Committee Clerks attended
the Committee Public Bill CommitteeTuesday 24 March 2009(Morning)[Mrs. Joan Humble in the Chair]Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning BillWritten evidence to be reported to the HouseAS 24
National Union of Teachers
(Supplementary)
Clause 90Power
to amend apprenticeship
scheme 10.30
am Amendment
made: 412, in clause 90, page 54,
line 28, leave out (1)(b) and insert
(1A)(b).(Jim
Knight.) This amendment
is consequent on amendments 410 and
411. Clause
90, as amended, ordered to stand part of the
Bill. Clause
91 ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause 92Education
and training for persons aged 19 or over and others subject to adult
detention
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Innovation, Universities and
Skills (Mr. Siôn Simon): I
beg to move amendment 346, in clause 92,
page 55, line 29, at end
insert (ga) have regard to
the desirability of the core entitlement and the additional entitlement
being satisfied for persons subject to adult detention but aged under
19 who have elected for
them;. This
amendment requires the Chief Executive of Skills Funding when securing
the provision of education and training under clause 92 for persons
subject to adult detention to have regard to the desirability of the
core and additional entitlements being satisfied for those persons who
have elected for them.
Mr.
Simon: Good morning, Mrs. Humble.
Amendment 346 requires that the chief executive of the Skills Funding
Agency, in securing suitable education and training provision for
persons subject to adult detention, but aged under 19-years-old, has
regard to the desirability of the core curriculum and additional
entitlements being satisfied for those who have elected for
them. The
change also results in consequential amendment 347, which provides for
the definition of core entitlement and additional entitlement under
clause 92 to be read alongside proposed new sections 17B to 17D of the
Education Act 1996 to be inserted under clause 44.
The size and infrastructure of many custodial establishments
make it unfeasible for them to offer the full diploma entitlement in
custody. We are not expecting any one school or college to deliver the
full entitlement in the community and it is not practical to expect
custodial establishments to be able to deliver that either. Most young
adult offendersthose aged over 18 but under 19 years
oldare in adult custody for a short time so it will usually not
be practical to study a full diploma course, for
example. The
core and additional entitlements are designed to be flexible, and we
want to ensure that offenders in custody can receive learning as
closely aligned as practicable with that available in the mainstream
sector. For that reason, the amendment would require the chief
executive of the Skills Funding Agency to have regard to the
desirability of the core and additional entitlements being
satisfied.
Mr.
John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con): The
Minister will be aware that the chief executive of the Learning and
Skills Council resigned yesterday. Should the chief executive of the
Skills Funding Agency resign, to whom would that responsibility
pass?
Mr.
Simon: Let me be clear about the question. Should the
chief executive of the Skills Funding Agency resign, to whom would the
responsibilities of the chief executive of the Skills Funding Agency
pass?
Mr.
Simon: I am assuming that such a position would be the
same as in any other regard, in that the responsibilities would lie in
the first instance with the permanent secretary as the accounting
officer, who would then, I assume, immediately appoint an acting
replacement, as happened yesterday with the chief executive of the
Learning and Skills
Council. I
hope that members of the Committee agree that the amendments are
necessary to align the education and training in adult detention as far
as practicable with that available in juvenile custody and the
mainstream
sector.
Mr.
Hayes: What a pleasure to see you back in the Chair,
Mrs. Humble, after our deliberations last week in your
absence. We look forward to making the same steady, considered
progress, without hyperbole or unnecessary delay. Under the amendments,
the Skills Funding Agency must ensure the provision of core and
additional entitlements for those under 19 years old in adult
detention. It is clear that clause 92 moves the provision of education
of those in detention from the Learning and Skills Council to the
Skills Funding Agency, hence my earlier intervention. I wanted to
establish whether the same protocols would apply with the SFA that we
could reasonably expect of the LSC in respect of accountability and
responsibility. Given the crisis that led to the resignation of the
chief executive of the LSC yesterday, that question is
pertinent. I
wish to probe the position of OLASS, the offender learning and skills
service, which would previously have looked after the younger people in
adult detention, and
to determine whether the amendment ensures that young offenders can
progress beyond level 2 in the core and additional
entitlements. It
is worth reminding the Committee that OLASS was established only in
2005 and is therefore at a relatively early stage of its development.
The Prisoners Education Trust has indicated that it is moving
in the right direction and that, in the new contracting round for
learning and skills providers that is currently under way, OLASS
intends to address many of the weaknesses identified in its first three
years of work. When I speak of weaknesses, I am alluding to the
National Audit Office report, Meeting Needs? The Offender
Learning and Skills Service and the Public Accounts Committee
report of Session 47 with the same title. Can the Minister indicate
whether OLASS will become part of the SFA and whether the SFA has the
ability to carry on the work that OLASS has been
doing? Secondly,
though a significant proportion of prisoners lack even basic
qualifications, and it is understandable that priority is given to
enabling that group to reach level 1 and, if possible, level 2, can the
Minister indicate whether there is to be any level 3 provision for
those in adult detention who may already have level 2 qualifications,
or indeed who may have acquired those during the education they
received while detained?
Thirdly,
could the Minister indicate what the provision in relation to core and
additional provision will consist of, and whether there will be funding
for those who may wish to engage in distance learning on the core and
additional
entitlement? Finally,
in relation to persons subject to adult detention, clause 92 states
that the chief executive of skills funding must
act with a view
to encouraging diversity of education and training available to
individuals...increasing opportunities for individuals to exercise
choice and have
regard to the desirability of
enabling offenders to
continue programmes of education or training which they have
begun. OLASS
is working hardparticularly after the comments made in the two
independent studies that I mentioned from the National Audit Office and
the Public Accounts Committeeto provide and develop its
services. Nevertheless, there are gaps. Does the Minister believe that
funding core and additional provisions will fill the
gaps? I
have a final question. I am sure that the Minister will want to say in
his comprehensive concluding remarks something about those with
learning difficulties, particularly language difficulties. We talked
about that earlier in relation to other aspects of the Bill. It is
highly relevant to the clause and the Government
amendments.
Mr.
Simon: The hon. Gentleman began by saying that he hoped we
would continue to make steady progress today. There is an
interpretation on this side of the Committee that we have not quite
been making the speedy progress required if we are to have an even
consideration of matters in the considerable time that has been
allocated to us. I hope that, while keeping the
progress steady and the consideration thorough, the hon. Gentleman will
join me in perhaps upping the pace and cracking on a bit more
smartly. Mr.
Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) (Con): I find
those comments fairly concerning. Does the Minister not want a question
put to him during deliberations on a Government amendment?
Mrs. Humble, there are more than 200 Government
amendmentspushing on 300to a 256-clause Bill. For the
Minister to complain when Opposition Members question amendments that
have been tabled since Second Reading is
unwarranted.
Mr.
Simon: I am not complaining about being questioned. I am
simply reminding the hon. Gentleman who was congratulating us on making
steady progress that we have actually been going more slowly. We have
spent 53 minutes out of 20 hours of debate on Government amendments.
They are technical amendments. We have already spent nine minutes of
our two and a half hours this morning debating Government amendments. I
shall attempt to deal with all the questions that the hon. Member for
South Holland and The Deepings has mentioned as quickly and efficiently
as I
can. The
core and additional entitlements are designed to offer flexible
learning and accreditation. We are looking at how adult offenders might
be able to study for some components that can then contribute to a full
diploma while they are in custody.
In answer to
the hon. Gentlemans question, the Offender Learning and Skills
Service will continue and it will sit inside the Skills Funding Agency.
He mentioned some of the issues that were raised in the reports from
the PAC and the NAO. We are addressing those and have published our
replies in detail. To answer his question about level 3 provision,
there will be such provision in the same kind of circumstances that
will apply according to the same criteria applied outside. There may be
e-learning for diplomas, and we are exploring its possible
applicability to custodial establishments. As for learning
difficulties, the LSC is developing a comprehensive tool to asses
learning difficulties for offenders and we hope that it will be in
place by 1 August. It will allow OLASS to improve the
service and address even better the needs of those
learners.
Mr.
Hayes: The only point that the hon. Gentleman did not
cover in that pithy and appropriately concise summary was the issue
about those whom the Government wish to engage in distance learning on
core and additional entitlement. I should like to add to that the
continuation of peoples learning once released. One of the big
complaints that PAC and others made related to the issue of continuity,
in the sense that they began things that they had finished rather than
restarting training and education. That is critical because of the
impact that the acquisition of education and skills has in preventing
recidivism.
Mr.
Simon: I am grateful for the hon. Gentlemans kind
words about my conciseness and I am glad that we seem to have reached
more of a consensus about that matter. I had intended to answer more
clearly the question about e-learning. The current plan has provision
for
e-learning and distance learning and there are pilots in train now to
examine how more can be done with that within the confines of the
security and restriction requirements of being in detention. However,
the hon. Gentleman is quite right that we need to do more to join up
the prison learning experience with the after-prison learning
experience. Amendment
346 agreed
to. Amendment
made: 347, in
clause 92, page 56, line 5, at
end insert ( ) Sections
17B to 17D of the Education Act 1996 (c. 56) (core and
additional entitlements: interpretation) apply for the purpose of
subsection (4)(ga) as they apply for the purpose of section 17A of that
Act (duties of local education authorities in relation to the core and
additional entitlements)..(Mr.
Simon.) This
amendment is consequent on amendment 346 and provides for
core entitlement and additional
entitlement in clause 92(4)(ga)to be read in
accordance with sections 17B-17D of the Education Act 1996 (inserted by
clause 44).
Clause 92,
as amended, ordered to stand part of the
Bill. Ordered, That
clause 92 be transferred to end of line 33 on page
50. (Mr.
Simon.)
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