Sarah
McCarthy-Fry: I beg to move amendment 497, in
schedule 9, page 192, line 11, after
first ‘of’ insert
‘other’. This is a
technical drafting amendment which clarifies that paragraph 6(5) of
Schedule 9 relates to the conditions of service of members of staff
other than the chief executive (whose conditions of service are already
dealt with by paragraph 6(1) to
(3)).
The
Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss
Government amendments 498 and 499, 437 to 439, 441, 451, 464, 467, 446,
452, 482, 486 to 489, 500, 495 and
509.
Sarah
McCarthy-Fry: You read out the amendments very eloquently,
Mrs. Humble. I appreciate that there is a lot to take in,
but most of the amendments are technical. They derive from our review
of the Bill to ensure that it delivers precisely and unambiguously what
we wanted and that its measures are fully consistent.
Government
amendments 437 and 438 ensure that Ofqual must recognise an awarding
body or accredit its qualification when the relevant criteria are met,
but must not otherwise do so. As drafted at the moment, the wording
could imply that Ofqual has the power to recognise or accredit when the
relevant criteria are not met, which was never our intention.
Government amendments 439 and 441 make it clear that it is for Ofqual
to decide when its criteria for recognition and accreditation and its
general conditions come into force. That will allow Ofqual to manage
the introduction of new qualifications effectively and give awarding
bodies the time that they need to prepare for changes in
the requirements.
Government
amendment 451 ensures that if Ofqual revises its accreditation
criteria, awarding bodies will have to comply with the new criteria. In
those circumstances, an accreditation will cease on a date specified by
Ofqual unless Ofqual says otherwise. That will mean that the awarding
body will have to go back to Ofqual to seek a new accreditation, which
will allow Ofqual to manage revisions to criteria in an orderly way. In
practice, that is how the arrangements work at the moment.
Additionally, Ofqual can make saving or transitional provisions to
prevent any harm to those studying for a qualification that ceases to
be
accredited. Government
amendments 478 to 480 are technical amendments to ensure that Ofqual
must publish on its register details of each individual form
of a qualification that an awarding body awards, not just
the types of qualification that it awards. Government
amendments 464 and 467 ensure that Ofqual’s criteria
in relation to guided learning hours need not come into force
immediately, mirroring the position for its other
criteria.
Mr.
Gibb: Will the Minister explain why it is necessary for
guided learning hours to be included in the Bill, and are therefore
necessary to amend the provisions relating to them? What is the purpose
of having guided hours in the
legislation?
Sarah
McCarthy-Fry: Off the top of my head, it is because guided
learning hours are part of achieving the qualification.
However, if there is an additional answer, I will get back to the hon.
Gentleman.
Government
amendments 497 and 498 eliminate unnecessary duplication in the
provisions relating to the conditions of service of Ofqual’s
chief executive and other members of staff,
thereby eliminating any possible ambiguity about how the conditions are
set. Government amendment 499 is one of a number of drafting
changes to ensure that the Bill is consistent in how it
refers to itself in conjunction with other
Acts. Government
amendment 446 refers to clauses 132 and 134, which say that in certain
specific and limited circumstances, Ofqual can set a
condition on an awarding body allowing Ofqual to enter premises to
inspect or copy documents. Clause 134(3) confirms that inspecting
documents includes inspecting records kept on computers. The amendment
substitutes improved wording so that the meaning of the provision is
crystal clear.
6.45
pm
Mr.
Gibb: On amendment 446, why does the Minister feel
it necessary for Ofqual to have the entry and inspection powers to
enter awarding bodies’ premises and look at their computer
records?
Sarah
McCarthy-Fry: Because if Ofqual has a condition allowing
it to enter premises to inspect or copy documents, it must surely
include documents and records kept on a
computer.
Mr.
Walker: What level of notice will Ofqual be required to
provide to the agency whose premises it is inspecting or
entering?
Sarah
McCarthy-Fry: That relates to clause 134. We will get to
that when we get there.
Government
amendment 452 deals purely with a drafting point and will allow us to
bring one bit of the Bill into line with another. Amendment 482 is a
technical amendment intended to ensure that the relevant provisions for
the withdrawal of recognition apply fully to the situation in which the
body is recognised to award or authenticate credits in respect of
components of qualifications, rather than full qualifications.
Similarly, Government amendments 486 to 489 are all technical.
Government amendments 486 and 489 clarify that where the Bill makes
provision about joint working with other public bodies for the
performance by Ofqual of its qualifications functions, the intention is
to catch the performance of any of those functions, and not necessarily
the performance of all of them. Government amendments 487
and 488 tighten up the drafting so as to be clear that Ofqual is not,
strictly speaking, a qualifications regulator, as defined in clause
149(2)(a).
Mr.
Gibb: The fact that the Minister does not regard Ofqual as
a qualifications regulator was clear from the last debate. If it is not
a qualifications regulator, what is
it?
Sarah
McCarthy-Fry: We have to return to Ofqual’s
objectives under clause 125, which sets out exactly what it is. The
amendments are technical. It is not as per the precise definition in
clause 125, but when we get to that clause, we can discuss
Ofqual’s objectives. Then we can deal with the hon.
Gentleman’s
point.
Mr.
Laws: I am rather baffled by this exchange about the
purpose of Ofqual. It is a rather basic point. Is this a qualifications
regulator, a standards regulator or something
else?
Sarah
McCarthy-Fry: This is a technical point about a precise
definition. Obviously, Ofqual is a regulator of our qualifications
system. As I understand it, the amendment will tighten up a technical
matter, and certainly does not mean that we do not think that Ofqual is
a regulator of our qualifications system—the clue is in the
title really.
Amendment 495
will make the Bill easier to read and reproduces the definition of
“public authority” in full, rather than making the reader
cross-refer to the definition 10 pages away in clause 148. Amendment
500 addresses a minor issue over the drafting of schedule 11 dealing
with the QCDA and mirrors amendment 498 for Ofqual. Amendment 509, like
amendment 482, is a technical amendment intended to ensure that the
relevant provisions over the withdrawal of recognition apply fully to
the
situation where the body is recognised to award, or authenticate,
credits in respect of components of qualifications. Most of the
amendments are purely technical and, where there are material changes,
those changes are not great. I hope that, on the basis of that
explanation, hon. Members will agree that the 23 amendments be made to
the Bill.
Mr.
Gibb: I had not intended to rise, other than to ask the
questions I have already asked during my interventions. However, I am
afraid to say that the answers given by the Minister, and the
explanations given for the amendments, were wholly lacking on three of
the amendments. I am concerned about the tabling of 23 Government
amendments together in one huge debate. In particular, I was concerned
about the flippant response to the question from my hon. Friend the
Member for Broxbourne about the notice period given for inspections for
entry into companies’ premises. Those powers are important and
to not know the notice period, and then to flippantly say “a
reasonable notice”, is not acceptable. To quote from the
explanatory note:
“This
amendment clarifies that Ofqual may set an ‘entry and inspection
condition’ that allows a person authorised by Ofqual to inspect
and copy electronic records in the same way as a person would be able
to do if authorised under section 58 of the Education Act
2005.”
I asked the
Minister what the purpose of that power was; why was it needed? I do
not just mean, why were new powers needed to examine electronic
records? The purpose of the question was to ask, why are those powers
to go into people’s premises to inspect their records necessary
for Ofqual, when we are talking about it regulating
qualifications?
We then come
to Government amendment 464, which talks about guiding learning hours.
The Minister was not able to explain why it was necessary to have them
in the Bill. I know that we will come to that in clause 139, but this
is an amendment to clause 139 and I expected the Minister to have a
clear understanding of why we should have guided learning hours in
legislation. Is she telling professionals how many hours are needed to
teach a particular qualification? Is it the intention of the Government
to say that, for example, 50 hours is needed for a particular module of
a particular GCSE? That is something that should be left to the
professionalism of teachers.
On Government
amendment 487, we are told in the explanatory statement that it
clarifies that
“Ofqual itself
is not a ‘qualifications
regulator’”. That
has baffled members of the Committee, including the hon. Member for
Yeovil, because I thought that the precise purpose of this part of the
Bill was to establish a qualifications regulator. Again, I was not very
happy with the Minister’s response. Will she have another
attempt at answering those questions? If not, then I do not feel
comfortable in allowing those three Government amendments to go through
untested.
Sarah
McCarthy-Fry: As regards to the guided learning hours,
that relates to raising the participation age, as agreed in the
Education and Skills Act 2008. That creates a duty on young people
above compulsory school age, but under-18, to participate in education
or training.
When people who are under-18 are in full-time employment, the duty in
the Act requires them to undertake sufficient relevant education or
training, which is defined as the equivalent of 280 hours a year. To
facilitate that, the Act placed a duty on the QCA, as regulator, to
assign guided learning hours to qualifications. That is the
reason why those powers are being passed on to
Ofqual.
Mr.
Gibb: Will the Minister confirm that it does not apply to
qualifications applicable to those under the age of
16?
Sarah
McCarthy-Fry: Regarding the powers to enter premises, they
are needed to allow Ofqual to investigate whether awarding bodies are
maintaining standards and whether fees should be capped. That is the
reason why the power to inspect documents is there. We will set out a
code of practice on how the powers should be used, which will define
what is a reasonable period of notice.
The technical
point is that clause 149 sets out the power to provide information to
other qualifications regulators. Of course Ofqual is a qualifications
regulator, but the definition in the clause is for regulators elsewhere
in the UK. Subsection (2)(b) defines the term purely for the purpose of
the clause. I hope that that satisfies the hon.
Gentleman.
Mr.
Gibb: I am still not entirely satisfied by the
Minister’s response on amendment 487, although I am
happy with her responses on the other two amendments. The explanatory
statement for amendment 487
states: “This
amendment and amendment 488 are technically drafting
amendments, clarifying that Ofqual itself is not a
‘qualifications regulator’ within the meaning given to
that term by clause
149(2)(a).” It
does not state that the other regulators are not qualifications
regulators.
Sarah
McCarthy-Fry: That merely means that Ofqual will not have
to provide information to itself. That is the purpose of that technical
amendment.
Mr.
Gibb: It would have been helpful if the explanatory
statement stated that, which it does not. It states
that “Ofqual
itself is not a ‘qualifications
regulator’”.
Given that the Minister
has confirmed that Ofqual is a qualifications regulator, I will not
press the matter to a division.
Amendment
497 agreed
to. Amendment
made: 498, in schedule 9, page 192,
line 13, leave out paragraph (c).—(Sarah
McCarthy-Fry.) Amendment
proposed: 59, in
schedule 9, page 192, leave out lines 28 to
33.—(Mr.
Laws.) Question
put, That the amendment be
made. The
Committee divided: Ayes 6, Noes
8.
Division
No.
20]
Question
accordingly negatived.
Amendment
made: 499, in schedule 9, page 194,
line 12, leave out ‘this or any other’ and
insert ‘any’.—(Sarah
McCarthy-Fry.) Schedule
9, as amended, ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
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