Mr.
Laws: Clearly, that is an important issue. It is
understandable that the employees and trade unions concerned will want
to scrutinise the Bill to understand whether it gives additional
flexibility that some people may welcome and think is sensible, or
additional flexibility that undercuts what may be considered to be
important employee rights. The perception of the significance of the
debate would be affected if it were the case that additional
flexibility was being introduced, as opposed to the Bill simply
maintaining, even in a different form, the existing degree of
flexibility. I am assuming that the Minister, who is normally extremely
well briefed on these matters, is correct. I know that, having made
that point, if anything that he said is not perfectly accurate, he will
draw it to the attention of the Committee so that we can take it up at
a later stage.
Mrs.
Hodgson: I am grateful to the Minister for his substantial
and detailed response, especially at this hour of the morning. I
listened carefully to what he said and I will read it even more
carefully when it is published in Hansard, as will the trade
unions that are supporting these fabulous support staff. Following his
assurances, I am more than happy to withdraw the amendment. I beg to
ask leave to withdraw the
amendment. Amendment,
by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 215
ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
The
Chairman: Before we move on to clause 216, I am
going to suspend the Committee for 15 minutes so that we can get an
update on what the plans are. I will suspend the Committee so that I am
in a position to be able to inform the House authorities what the
intentions are—it seems that the intentions are different from
those that were expressed to me by the hon. Member for Brent, South
this evening.
I just put it
on the record that I have now been in the Chair for some eight hours
and that the Committee has been sitting for 12 and a half hours
already. I hope that, by 3 am, the Government Whip, who I am sorry to
see is not in the Committee, will be able to report on what the
intentions of the Government are in relation to this matter. I hope
that the usual channels will be
involved. 2.43
am Sitting
suspended. 3
am On
resuming—
The
Chairman: I give the hon. Member for Brent, South an
opportunity to bring us up to date on what has happened in the last
quarter of an hour.
Ms
Dawn Butler (Brent, South) (Lab): Thank you,
Mr. Chope. First, I should like to put on record my thanks
to the staff of the House for all their help today. There has been no
formal agreement on how far we are going to get today. In fact, the
provisional planning for the Committee, annexe 4, suggests that we
should be way ahead of where we are at the moment. We have spent a lot
of time discussing the Bill today and yesterday and we would like to
continue with the progress we are making.
The
Chairman: I hear what the hon. Lady says, but that is not
sufficient for me in the Chair. I have to make a judgment as to the
length of time for which I am going to suspend the Committee.
Obviously, as the hon. Lady may know, it would be theoretically
possible for this sitting to continue right through until all the
business that was scheduled under the programme motion to take place on
Tuesday has been completed. At the moment, under the programme motion,
five and a half hours are available on Tuesday, and earlier a proposal
was canvassed that the Committee would be able to sit until midnight on
Tuesday, thereby extending the period by another three and a half or
four hours or so.
We are
talking about the possibility of eight hours’ business and the
hon. Lady has said that we have not made as much progress as she would
have liked. It
seems implicit in what she is saying that she is fearful that eight
hours will not be sufficient on Tuesday to cover all the ground, in
which case she is inferring that there is more than eight hours’
business ahead of the Committee. My
co-Chairman, to whom I spoke before I volunteered to take over this
afternoon, said to me that she had never, as a Member of the
Chairmen’s Panel, experienced a Committee where there was so
little co-operation with the Chairman. I expressed exactly the same
opinion to her and I now put it on record openly, because the
conventions of the House are that the Chairman is involved. If my
co-Chairman and I had known that the intention was that we should sit
until three o’clock, I am sure that she would not have returned
to her constituency, as she has. Therefore, I am left in the situation
that I may be expected to do another 12 hours in the Chair, and I have
already been up since early this morning. I have been in the Chair for
eight hours—we have had a few breaks, but they are in addition
to those hours. I feel—maybe the hon. Lady does not wish to
inform me—that I am entitled to know how long the Committee
intends to sit.
That means
the hon. Lady either giving a time when she will be minded to move that
the Committee do adjourn, or an indication as to how far down the
amendment paper she wishes to go before she moves the adjournment
motion. I invite her to give me some more information because it is not
just me in this position. There are a lot of other people in the House,
as I have already pointed out. I would welcome her intervention so that
she can help a bit more.
Ms
Butler: I am not quite sure what you meant by your
reference to the Chairman’s involvement, Mr. Chope,
but as I said, quite clearly, we would like to continue making progress
with the Bill. I thank you for your time in the Chair—I think
you are doing an excellent job—but I would like to continue the
Bill’s progress.
Further to
that, I am also not sure whether there is a formula for the times that
we break and the times that we sit, so you might want to clarify it,
Mr. Chope.
The
Chairman: Perhaps I can explain to the hon. Lady. As I
said before, it is open to the Committee to carry on sitting until the
whole Bill is completed and that might mean anything between eight and
12 hours more of sitting. If it is her wish to complete the
Committee’s consideration of the Bill all in one sitting, it
means that she will be expecting me to stay in the Chair for another
eight or 12 hours. If that is her intention, or if that is in doubt, I
have to take that into account in making a judgment as to what is a
reasonable period for the Committee to be suspended. I invite the hon.
Lady to give a bit more information, otherwise, having regard to what
has happened up to now, I shall have to interpret what she is saying as
an indication that it may be the Government’s intention to go
right through to the end of the business on the amendment
paper.
Ms
Butler: Thank you for that clarification, Mr.
Chope. I apologise for not being able to say what time we will finish,
but at the beginning of the Committee the hon. Member for South Holland
and The Deepings spoke for very long periods of time and not always to
the Bill. I was unable to say when he would stop talking, so I could
not say what time we would finish or even get to
the clauses that we hoped to get to earlier on. We are ready to spend
the number of hours that we would have spent if we sat on Tuesday
deliberating the Bill. I do not think that there is a further eight
hours ahead, so we should be able to complete the Bill in less time
than that. Therefore, I should like us to continue making progress with
the
Bill.
Mr.
Laws: On a point of order, Mr. Chope. We all
know why the sitting has been prolonged to this extent. It is to cover
up the Government’s embarrassment for losing a series of their
own amendments through incompetence. What we are now experiencing is
Labour Members being put in detention. I am happy to continue
scrutinising the Bill, although the way in which the Government intend
to do that, given that we have a full day on Tuesday, is not very
rational, sensible or fair to you, Mr. Chope, or to all the
staff who have to stay here in order for the usual channels on the
Government side to make their political point. It would be more
sensible to continue with deliberations on Tuesday. However, if it is
the wish of the Government to continue to press this, we will be very
happy to go on scrutinising the Bill for as long as is necessary. We
are certainly not willing in any way to compromise on the scrutiny of
the Bill.
If it is the
Government’s intention to continue, it would be sensible,
Mr. Chope, for you to suspend this particular sitting for a
few hours to give you an opportunity to have a break and to ensure that
you are chairing the proceedings as they deserve to be chaired.
Moreover, it would ensure that those who speak from the Front Bench on
both sides are up to scratch with the matters they are having to
debate. Those outside this place who look at the proceedings will not
want to feel that we are scrutinising the Bill inadequately for
political reasons associated with the Government’s embarrassment
yesterday morning. They will want to ensure that you, Mr.
Chope, and Committee members are able to do their job properly. We will
be better able to do that if we suspend the sitting for a period of
hours and then, if necessary, continue throughout
tomorrow.
The
Chairman: I do not know if anyone else wants to
contribute, but it seems from what the hon. Member for Brent, South has
just said that it is the intention of the Government to carry on this
sitting until we conclude the Bill. I will stand corrected if that is
not the correct interpretation. If that is the right interpretation, I
will consider for what length of period we should suspend the sitting.
I will sit down briefly to enable her to confirm or deny that that is
the intention of the
Government. Mary
Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): From the point of view of Back
Benchers, Mr. Chope, I should like to say that many of us
have constituency engagements—as I am sure is probably the case
for all hon. Members. If the Government intend to continue, as appears
to be the case, it might be a better use of our time to see how far we
can get during the next hour or two, and to review the situation then,
with the agreement of the usual channels. To go now, and then return at
6, 7 or 8 o’clock, would cause more disruption for
me, given that I have child care responsibilities, than if I just got
on the Wakefield train at 6 o’clock this morning. That hour is
rapidly approaching.
Mr.
Laws: Further to that point of order, Mr.
Chope. If Government Members are so keen to ensure that they are back
in their constituencies tomorrow, for child care and other
responsibilities, surely we should continue this sitting properly on
Tuesday. That would give us an entire day’s sitting in which to
finish what little remains to be done. However, if the Government
intend to pursue their course, we are more than happy to remain, but it
would be sensible to have a suspension for a few hours, for the reasons
that I gave earlier.
The
Chairman: The hon. Member for Brent, South said that we
have not yet reached the point in the Bill at which the Government want
to begin on Tuesday. I am not privy to what that point is, but perhaps
it is where she wants to get to during the next hour or so. However,
unless I get some more information, I cannot identify that point nor
make a judgment about it. I take to heart the hon. Gentleman’s
point about the need for people to address properly and with a clear
head the very important issues in the Bill. I do not know whether the
Minister wishes to comment on that. He needs to take into account the
fact that he and his ministerial team have been changing places during
the course of the day. We have now been sitting for well over 12 and a
half hours. We have made very good progress and have completed much of
the Bill. As far as I can tell, we have disposed of some 48 groups of
amendments, and a further 17 remain on the order paper. We have dealt
with 90 clauses, six schedules and about 85 Government
amendments. I would have thought it reasonable to say at some stage,
“Well, the rest of the business can be dealt with on Tuesday, in
accordance with the programme motion.” However, I am in the
Committee’s hands, and unless I can get some more information, I
shall take it that the Committee’s intention is that I should
sit in the Chair until the whole of our proceedings are
completed.
Jim
Knight: Mr. Chope, as I said earlier, I fully
appreciate the strain on you and the staff—both parliamentary
and departmental—who have been serving us so well. I am very
grateful to them for that. However, it would seem that only at this
time of day and night can we make good progress in our consideration of
the Bill. I certainly suggest that we finish this and the next part,
and then consider whether we have achieved good
progress.
The
Chairman: I am sorry, but I missed the Minister’s
peroration.
Jim
Knight: I am suggesting that it might help the Committee
to complete parts 10 and 11 and then consider whether that progress is
sufficient. We will make a decision at that
point.
Mr.
Laws: On a point of order, Mr. Chope. I am not
really satisfied with the Minister’s proposal, especially given
that those parts of the Bill are incredibly important. They were very
controversial when we took evidence from outside bodies. We shall want
to give considerable scrutiny to those parts of the Bill, spending some
time on them. I am not convinced that we can do that in a short period.
I am happy to do it later this morning, but I suggest that a short
suspension would be helpful if the usual channels and the Government
insist on taking the matter further
today.
3.15
am Emily
Thornberry (Islington, South and Finsbury) (Lab): On a
point of order, Mr. Chope. One of the most helpful
contributions that the hon. Member for Yeovil has made was the one
before last—it was the most helpful comment that he has made for
several hours. He said that there is little in reality to fill an
entire day. That is helpful in terms of estimating how long this is
likely to take. I was interested to hear you, Mr. Chope,
suggest that it might take between eight and 12 hours. We seem largely
to be in the hands of the hon. Member for Yeovil as to how long the
matter will take. If he estimates that it will not take an entire day
to finish, I suggest that we press
on.
Mr.
Simon: Further to that point of order, Mr.
Chope. I want to echo and slightly develop my hon. Friend’s
point. While we turn to my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, South for
guidance, it is not entirely surprising that she cannot give us a time
by which we can expect to have made real progress, because, as my hon.
Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury has said, our time
is controlled not by the usual channels but by the Opposition,
particularly the hon. Member for Yeovil. Reading out the Bill has not
expedited our business this
evening.
The
Chairman: I have asked for a specific point in the Bill or
a time, but I have not received either, so we do not seem to have made
much progress through the usual
channels. Clauses
216 to 228 ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
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