Mr. Harper: I checked part 6, but it did not seem to exclude earlier parts of the Bill. It will be helpful if the Minister can clarify whether clauses 19 and 27 apply to schools. If they do not, and she then writes to us, we can have a discussion when we get to part 6. I wanted to check, because if the clauses do apply to schools, it will be helpful when we are thinking about tabling amendments. I think the Minister may now be in a position to answer.
This Part does not apply to discrimination, harassment or victimisation...that is prohibited by Part 4 (premises), 5 (work) or 6 (education).
We need to travel on to part 6 to look at issues around education.
Dr. Harris: I plead partly guilty to the charges laid down by the Minister. I said that I thought that amendment 232 could have been grouped with the other amendments to clause 24. I think that you and your colleagues, Lady Winterton, chose to group it separately because it raised separate issues, such as the distinction between private and public servicesthe Minister has made no comment on thatand the definition of a public authority. In respect of the last of those, I am happy to have the debate whenever the Minister feels it is appropriate. I would be grateful if she or one of her team could indicate when she feels it is appropriate for the Opposition to raise that issue. I would like to do that when she wantsI have no desperate desire to do it now or out of order. I understand that point.
I regret the Minister stating that the Government are not making a distinction in the Bill between the provision of services privately and the delivery of services of a public nature. That is something that we shall have to debate when we deal with the exceptions, where I believe that there is cause for that distinction to be made. Although feeling half guilty, I make no apology for raising the pointgiven that the amendment was separately grouped in order that I could do sothat there ought to be that distinction. At some point we need to cover the definition of a public authority. The question that comes to mind is if not now, when? We shall work to find out when that might be.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 27 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 28 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Interpretation and exceptions
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
A public function is a function that is a function of a public nature for the purposes of the Human Rights Act 1998.
I may not have caught up with what is going on, but if that is not an opportunity to probe the question of the definition of
a function of a public nature for the purposes of the Human Rights Act 1998,
I do not know what is. It seems to be an open invitation.
I shall not repeat most of what I have already said. Let me give the Committee time to find page 21the explanatory note does not go into the matter in great detail, but it is a real issue. When is
a function of a public nature for the purposes of the Human Rights Act
is a question that has tied up our courts, to an extent the Government and certainly the Joint Committee on Human Rights for a long time. There is a solution in respect of health care, which has been recognised and accepted after a great deal of strugglenot least on the part of
For example, there is the question of academies, a delivery of education that their sponsors have argued is not covered by the definition of a public authority, or is differentially covered, depending on what the academies are doing. That is but one example, given the variety of ways in which public services are now deliveredin fact, through private and voluntary organisations in ways that were probably not even considered when the Human Rights Act 1998 was drafted. The issue is substantive and it would be of real benefit for the Government to set out whether they think that where we are with the YL case is where we want to be in equality legislationat least in so far as they are willing to make the distinction between public and non-public functions in equality law, which I accept is not as great as the number of occasions on which I should like to make that distinction.
I have made my point and I look forward to the response. I hope it will be now, but if elsewhere, I am happy to be directed to another part of the building.
The clause is interpretative and supplementary to clause 27, setting out meanings of public functionsprovision of a servicelargely replicating the position under existing law but bringing various diverse points together in one place for ease of reference. We have expressly linked the definition of public functions in the Bill to the Human Rights Act to provide, in so far as legislation can, clarity and consistency across the two pieces of legislation. We have also made it clear that the reference to providing a service covers services provided by both public and private organisations. That is important because we do not want to apply different requirements to organisations that are providing essentially the same service, simply because one is publicly funded and the other is not.
We have also used the clausethis does have some relevanceto make clear that the liability is therefore limited to that under part 5, when people are simply arranging for services to be provided by a third party to their employees. They should not then be regarded as a service provider. The employees would be regarded as a section of the public in relation to the third-party provider. The relationship between them and the third-party provider would be governed by this part, but that is not actually central to the point the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon raised.
Schedule 2 sets out reasonable adjustments and how they apply in relation to providing services and exercising public functions, and schedule 3 sets out exceptions to the prohibitions in the clause. I think at the core of the hon. Gentlemans concerns are public functions in the Human Rights Act, rather than some of the other bits I have referred to. I can tell the hon. Gentleman that concern is not confined to my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, nor is there a struggle over the issue. I was on the Joint Committee for Human Rights long before he was and we produced a report trying to probe how best to define public functions. I do not think it is putting it too bluntly to say we were slightly taken
Public functions are not specifically defined in the act, which instead speaks of functions of a public nature. Things that would be considered to be public are law enforcement, immigration and local authority revenue raising and collections. Public authorities provide public services such as leisure and day care centres, as well as carrying out non-service public functions such as law enforcement and revenue collection. If the activity falls into the category of providing a service to the public it will be covered by the provisions making it unlawful to discriminate in the provision of goods, facilities and services. If the activity is not caught under those provisions, it will be captured by the public functions provisions. What is important is that all the activities of public authorities are subject to the prohibition on discrimination unless there is a specific exception. That is helpful as I can be.
The Solicitor-General: The hon. Gentleman is probably going to ask me a question I was just about to answer, but please carry on.
In the list the Solicitor-General gave, I am particularly interested in the provision of welfare services for vulnerable people such as the poor, hungry and homeless. Would they be covered even if they were delivered by a private or voluntary organisation, or as part of welfare services but funded privately through charity as part of a public authoritys organisation, in which case, a safety net would apply and the Government would say no it is okay, that exists to look after them? Although the hon. and learned Lady may not always wish to make the same distinction as I do, if certain organisations are delivering those services there is a greater need to protect vulnerable service users than when purely commercial services are provided to paying customers who have more of a choice. That is the area I am seeking to probe.
The Solicitor-General: Of course, we do not have control over the courts. However, we are of the opinion that private bodies exercising functions of a public nature that are not covered by the service provisions will be subject to the public function provision set out in the Bill. An example would be Group 4 running a prison; it is carrying out a function of a public nature that is not considered to constitute the provision of a service. Accordingly, under the Bill, that activity would be subject to the requirements of non-discrimination in the exercise of a public function which is not a service. That is the broad definition and I hope it is helpful. It is better than it might be.
Dr. Harris: I know we should not have this debate now. However, it may help the Minister know my concern: what if a prison service was being run by a religious organisation? There is no injunction, and there is a big exception in schedule 23 for a religious organisation to
I do not expect the hon. and learned Lady to deal with such matters now because we can deal with them under schedule 23. However, I want her to acknowledge that without the distinction carried through to schedule 23 about what is a service in the exercise of a public functionabout which we are in agreementthere will be the worry that vulnerable people, captive people or those who rely on a service may suffer because of the nature of the organisation that is delivering it. We must bear it in mind that that is not in the control of Parliament at any given stage. It is a point for later, but I wanted to flag it up now.
The Solicitor-General: On the hon. Gentlemans specific point, I wish to make it clear that welfare provision is considered to be a service. The same protection applies whether the service is provided by a public or a private organisation, but the public body that commissions the service will have to ensure that it is provided to all. That is by way of an addendum. I am sure that we shall examine the relationship between public bodies and contracted-out services later. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is satisfied that it is wider than he probably thought that it was. That being the case, I propose that clause stands part of the Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 29 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 2 agreed to.
Services and public functions: exceptions
John Mason (Glasgow, East) (SNP): I beg to move amendment 39, in schedule 3, page 150, line 6, leave out paragraph 1.
Parliament is exempt from the ban on discrimination, harassment and victimisation in the exercise of its public functions. This amendment would remove that exemption.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: amendment 40, in schedule 3, page 150, line 14, leave out paragraph 2.
Parliaments legislative functions are exempt from the ban on discrimination, harassment and victimisation. This amendment would remove that exemption.
Amendment 41, in schedule 6, page 169, line 15, leave out paragraphs 2 and 3.
Political appointments, honours and peerages are exempt from the ban on discriminating against office-holders. this amendment would remove those exemptions.
Amendment 50, in schedule 18, page 216, leave out lines 21 to 24.
The Commons, the Lords, the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly are exempt from the public sector equality duty. This amendment would remove those exemptions.
John Mason: The amendments are broadly probing provisions. I want to hear the Governments explanation of some of the exemptions under the Bill. Clearly, we all accept that there are areas where it would be inappropriate to apply discrimination lawor to apply it fullybecause it could have harmful side effects. I know that people will sometimes say things like, Equality is an absolute and there can be no exemptions, but the reality is that we can and should apply equality and discrimination law pragmatically and flexibly because different considerations apply in different cases. If we do not, the Bill would be very short indeed and would simply say, Discrimination on these grounds is prohibited, and we would let the courts work it out.
Of course, even the act of selecting which grounds are protected places limits on equality, and clearly people could be discriminated against on a number of issues that are not included. There are limits on exemptions in equality law. Paragraph 1 of schedule 3 exempts Parliament. Paragraph 2 exempts legislation. The functions of Parliament, including the Committee and the process of preparing, making or considering a Bill, whether of this Parliament, the Scottish Parliament or the National Assembly for Wales, are not bound by the strictures of equality law.
The exemptions may make perfect sense, but I wait to hear from the Minister what they protect against and their purpose. If their purpose is to stop people making mischief, bringing endless legal claims and tying up Parliament in endless litigation, that would be a bad thing. However, I note that the exemptions are total, broad and unrestricted. They do not contain the sort of hoops through which people have to leap if they want to obtain the benefit of other exemptions for any of the other strands.
New clause 15 would have a similar effect, and I must admit that I have some sympathy for it. However, we seem to be inconsistent in allowing continuing discrimination by some organisations, but not others. Paragraphs 2 and 3 of schedule 6 exempt political appointments, honours and peerages. Again, I understand why the Government want to maintain the freedom to make important appointments without being tied up in litigation over allegations of discrimination. The Prime Minister may not be able to get rid of a Cabinet Minister simply because he had clever lawyers who claimed that his dismissal was related to a protected ground. Furthermore, I observe that religious groups and others feel the same way about appointing youth workers and pastoral workers.
Amendments 39 to 41 draw attention to the exemptions. Amendment 50 would exempt the two Parliaments and the Welsh Assembly from the public sector equality duty. It is a broad exemption. I shall not say anything more about it, but I think that I have made my point. I could have tabled probing amendments to paragraphs 21 and 22 of the schedule, which exempt insurance, but we accept that the insurance industry needs some protection. The exemptions are pretty comprehensive. I understand the need for that, although like other exemptions, the details and the limits might be subject to debate. I hope that the Minister will give us a full explanation and justification for each of the exemptions, because the subject of exemptions is an important one.
There are a lot of exemptions, and some of them are very broad. Therefore, we must not say to the Churchesas the Solicitor-General appeared to suggest when we heard
The danger the Government face is that by allowing broad exemptions for their own activities, but insisting that exemptions for religious groups, and others, should be as narrow as possible, people will conclude that there is one rule for the Government and another rule for everybody else.
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