The
Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the
following: amendment 4, in clause 2,page 2,
line 3, after ‘The’ insert ‘Board
of’. This amends the
reference to the Trustees of the National Gallery to refer to the Board
of Trustees of the National Gallery. This is the full name given by the
Museums and Galleries Act
1992. Amendment
5, in
clause 2, page 2, line 3, at
end insert— ‘The Trustees of
the National Library of
Scotland,’. This
amendment adds the Trustees of the National Library of Scotland to the
list of bodies to which the Bill applies.
Amendment 6,
in
clause 2, page 2, line 4, at
end insert— ‘The Board of
Trustees of the National Museums and Galleries on
Merseyside, The Board of
Trustees of the National Museums of
Scotland,’. This
amendment adds the Board of Trustees of the National Museums and
Galleries on Merseyside and the Board of Trustees of the National
Museums of Scotland to the list of bodies to which the Bill
applies. Amendment
7, in
clause 2, page 2, line 5, at
end insert— ‘The Trustees of
the Natural History Museum, The
Board of Trustees of the Royal Botanic Gardens,
Kew,’. This
amendment adds the Trustees of the Natural History Museum and the Board
of Trustees of the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew to the list of bodies to
which the Bill
applies.
Mr.
Dismore: The purpose of these amendments is to get the
list of institutions empowered to transfer complete and accurately
named. When we were drafting the Bill it was difficult because some
institutions have a board, some trustees and some a board of trustees.
We had to make sure that we got the right terminology and that the list
was complete. We have added the Scottish museums, libraries and
galleries, Merseyside, the Natural History Museum and Kew Gardens. I
cannot envisage Kew having any plants that it would need to return, but
it has its own library and art collection, so it is a belt-and-braces
job. I cannot honestly see Kew Gardens being in the position of having
to return an object, but one never knows. Basically, this is a
tidying-up exercise to make sure that we have the list complete and to
cater for Scotland.
Lembit
Öpik: This is an entirely technical modification
and I am sure that I speak for the entire Opposition in supporting
these amendments.
9.45
am
Barbara
Follett: The Government support these amendments. They add
the various institutions to the list of bodies to which the Bill
applies. Those include the board of trustees for the National Galleries
of Scotland, the trustees of the National Library of Scotland, and the
board of trustees of the National Museums of Scotland. As I mentioned
on Second Reading, we were in touch with the Scottish Executive about
whether they wanted to be included in the Bill. They have since
confirmed that they wish to have their national museums included
because, as with English national museums, there are statutory
restrictions in place that could prevent de-accessioning.
Amendment 4
changes the reference to the trustees of the National Gallery to refer
to the board of trustees of the National Gallery because that is the
full name given to them by the Museums and Galleries Act 1992. The
position of the National Museums and Galleries on Merseyside in terms
of their ability to de-accession items from their collection was
unclear at the time of Second Reading, but we are now satisfied that
they need to be included and they are added by amendment 6.
Amendment 7
adds the trustees of the Natural History Museum and the board of
trustees of the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew. I should say that Kew has a
magnificent collection of botanic art, and this is an area in which we
could have de-accessioning requests. We have therefore added Kew to the
list of bodies to which the Bill applies.
Inclusion on
the list follows discussions with officials of the organisations and
confirmation that the power is necessary.
Amendment
3 agreed
to. Amendments
made: 4, in
clause 2, page 2, line 3, after
‘The’ insert ‘Board
of’. This amends the
reference to the Trustees of the National Gallery to refer to the Board
of Trustees of the National Gallery. This is the full name given by the
Museums and Galleries Act
1992. Amendment
5, in
clause 2, page 2, line 3, at
end insert— ‘The Trustees of
the National Library of
Scotland,’. This
amendment adds the Trustees of the National Library of Scotland to the
list of bodies to which the Bill
applies. Amendment
6, in
clause 2, page 2, line 4, at
end insert— ‘The Board of
Trustees of the National Museums and Galleries on
Merseyside, The Board of
Trustees of the National Museums of
Scotland,’. This
amendment adds the Board of Trustees of the National Museums and
Galleries on Merseyside and the Board of Trustees of the National
Museums of Scotland to the list of bodies to which the Bill
applies. Amendment
7, in
clause 2, page 2, line 5, at
end insert— ‘The Trustees of
the Natural History Museum, The
Board of Trustees of the Royal Botanic Gardens,
Kew,’.—(Mr.
Dismore.) This
amendment adds the Trustees of the Natural History Museum and the Board
of Trustees of the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew to the list of bodies to
which the Bill
applies. Clause
2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
3Short
title and
commencement
Mr.
Dismore: I beg to move amendment 8, in
clause 3, page 2, line 11, leave
out ‘(Stolen Art) Restitution’ and insert ‘(Return
of Cultural
Objects)’. This
amends the short
title.
The
Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss
amendment 1, in title, leave out lines 1 to 5 and insert
‘Confer power to return certain cultural objects on
grounds relating to events occurring during the Nazi
era’. This amendment
substitutes a new long title to the
Bill.
Mr.
Dismore: The amendments will change the long and short
titles of the Bill more accurately to reflect its contents and purpose.
As the Bill has developed it has become apparent that it has less to do
with looted art and more to do with the power to return art. When we
talk about stolen art, that is a very narrow reflection of what was a
much wider problem during the period concerned.
“Spoliation” is the word used by the panel.
Whatever the wording, it has to have a much broader meaning than being
stolen or looted. Objects for sale but under-valued, for example, would
be included by the new long title, and indeed the short title. The
purpose, therefore, is to provide for the return and transfer of items
but to limit that provision to the Nazi era.
Amendment 9
provides for the devolved administrations, and amendment 10 relates to
the commencement provisions. I am pleased that we have been able to
maintain the original sunset clause, which the Government have accepted
after some rather difficult but fruitful
negotiations.
The
Chairman: Order. Eagerness is too apparent here. The hon.
Gentleman has moved on a little further than he should have
done.
John
Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): I wholeheartedly support the
amendments and congratulate the promoter of the Bill on his
perseverance, attention to detail and ingenuity in getting the Bill to
this stage. It is an unusual day for Parliament: we have a Minister who
is totally on top of her brief and knows what she is talking about; we
have an Opposition providing intelligent comment in support of the
Bill; we have brevity from the Liberal Democrats; and we have no Whips
present. In a modern democracy this is how legislation should
increasingly originate and proceed. I trust that the Minister can
guarantee that there will no attempt by the Government Whips to ensure
insufficient time for the Bill to progress to statute.
Amendment
8 agreed
to.
Mr.
Dismore: I beg to move amendment 9, in
clause 3, page 2, line 11, at
end insert— ‘(1A) This Act
extends to— (a) England
and Wales, and (b)
Scotland.’. This
adds a new subsection which provides that the Bill extends to England
and Wales and
Scotland.
The
Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss
amendment 10, in
clause 3, page 2, line 12, leave
out subsection (2) and
insert— ‘(2) The preceding
sections of this Act come into force on such day as the Secretary of
State may by order appoint.
(3) An order may make different provision for
different purposes. (4) Before
appointing a day for the coming into force of the preceding sections of
this Act so far as they relate to Scottish bodies the Secretary of
State must consult the Scottish
Ministers. (5) “Scottish
body” has the meaning given by section [Power to return
victims’
property](5). (6) This Act
expires at the end of the period of 10 years beginning with the day on
which it is
passed.’. This
replaces the current commencement provision and sunset clause with new
subsections. The new subsections provide for commencement by order.
They also provide for the Bill to expire 10 years after it is
passed.
Mr.
Dismore: I apologise for my earlier eagerness. Referring
back to those remarks, which I shall not repeat, amendment 9 provides
for the devolved administrations and amendment 10 modifies the
commencement provisions but retains the original sunset
clause.
Lembit
Öpik: I agree with the inclusion of Wales in
amendment 9—an appalling omission in the original
wording.
We should
include sunset clauses in most legislation as a matter of course. It is
good to see a precedent being set with the Bill. I hope that Ministers
and business managers will note the benefit for the Government of
having such a clause in
legislation. Mark
Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I congratulate the hon.
Member for Hendon on introducing the Bill. Will a second legislative
process be needed, given that the devolved powers and Assemblies have
been mentioned, and Wales, for example, has its own culture Minister? I
hope that that will not cause a
problem.
Mr.
Dismore: A sunset clause is important in the particular
circumstances of the Bill. We need to give sufficient time to ensure
that any outstanding claims can be dealt with, but we also want to be
able to give long-term certainty to the institutions concerned. A
10-year period achieves the best of both
worlds. As
to a second process in Wales, we had contact with the Welsh Government
or Assembly—I am not sure of the correct terminology.
[Hon. Members: “Assembly.”] I
understand that it felt that it already had the powers to deal with the
matter and did not need to be included in the
Bill.
Mr.
Whittingdale: On that point, none of the bodies on the
list is in Wales. What is the benefit of extending the Bill to
Wales?
Mr.
Dismore: The claimant may be from
Wales.
Barbara
Follett: The Government support amendments 9
and 10. Amendment 9, which is welcomed by the hon. Member for
Montgomeryshire, adds a new subsection (1A) extending the Bill to
England, Wales and Scotland. To comfort the hon. Member for The Wrekin,
we have consulted with the devolved Administrations and they are happy
with
that. The
Bill will become part of the law of England and Wales. The Scottish
Executive have asked to be included, and a legislative consent motion
is being prepared for introduction in the Scottish Parliament. The
Northern Ireland Assembly Government have confirmed that the power is
not needed for national museums in Northern
Ireland. Amendment
10 replaces the remainder of clause 3 with a new commencement
provision. The new subsections provide for commencement by order; the
Secretary of State must consult Scottish Ministers before an order is
made that would apply to Scottish
institutions. The
10-year sunset period in clause 3 remains the same but will become
subsection (6). I have indicated previously that the Government think
this is an appropriate period, after which all outstanding claims
should reasonably have been considered. That will allow something
like 74 years from the end of the second world war
and 19 years for claims to be considered by the Spoliation
Advisory Panel and for trustees, where necessary, to make a decision on
the transfer of an object.
It is worth
noting that the Dutch restitution committee, which was modelled on the
Spoliation Advisory Panel, has already stopped accepting new claims,
despite the fact that the scale of the problem in that country is far
greater than in the UK. In the Netherlands, many hundreds of works of
art have been returned to claimants over the years, compared with just
nine claims to the Spoliation Advisory Panel since
2000. Let
us not forget how much effort has been put in over the years by museums
and galleries in the UK to identify art that may have been looted, to
publicise it on websites and to consider what could be done about it.
However, I note that my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon said, on
Second Reading, that there are certainly a further 20 looted items in
UK museums. I have invited him to give us details of those.
On Second
Reading, the hon. Members for Faversham and Mid-Kent (Hugh Robertson)
and for Rochdale (Paul Rowen) proposed an alternative mechanism for
terminating the Act: a rolling period linked to the date of inclusion
of an object on a published statutory list. The Government’s
view is that the proposal, though well intentioned, is not workable in
the circumstances because it would involve additional costs for museums
in publishing information and would be difficult to administer. Unless
museums were under a duty to publish, it would not work, and if we were
to impose such a duty, we would need an enforcement mechanism for
non-compliance. That would remove some of the simplicity and
straightforwardness of the Bill.
To conclude,
I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon on all the
work and commitment that he has put into the Bill. It is a real advance
and it is thanks to him that we have it
today.
| 
