Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-59)
LORD JONES
OF BIRMINGHAM
23 FEBRUARY 2009
Q40 Chairman: And he has been to
India, I think, on one successful trip this year, but now you
have been replaced. Mervyn Davies is there.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: I am
thrilled to bits. He comes with the credentials of having chaired
one of only two banks—HSBC being the other—what a
surprise that I have said that—that are more globally aspected
of the British banking system and that have more successfully
weathered this crisis in a better way, and so he is coming with
a degree of street cred. Secondly, he is a real live, business-engaged
person. Thirdly, because he is in the Lords he is going to have
more time to go and do the job. I think it was an inspired choice.
I am thrilled to bits and he will have all the support in the
world from me.
Q41 Chairman: Is your conclusion
that the trade minister should always be in the Lords?
Lord Jones of Birmingham: When
I said about the civil servants and "half" and everything
else—of course it was taken out of context, but I said it
and I will stand by it—it is if you have the current system.
If you have the current system of policy delivery and if you have
the current system of ministerial representation, then I do believe
you need a minister for trade promotion—not trade policy,
that is different, but trade promotion—who, frankly, can
be spared from what you would call the normal duties in Westminster,
to get out around the world and sell your nation. As we speak,
that person is going to have more time if they are in the Lords.
But if you had a different system, you might do two things: you
might be able to do it differently and also have a different level
of support.
Q42 Chairman: Changing the system
implies a rather radical restructuring of our democratic process
to achieve a very unusual object.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: For
sure.
Q43 Chairman: It could be done more
simply. This Committee previously has recommended that the whips
simply have an understanding that the trade minister will not
be called back for important votes. It could be done very easily
if the willingness was there to do it.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: You
could have some form of electronic voting with—
Q44 Chairman: No, do not go there.
You surely are misunderstanding the process.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: I am
so sorry.
Chairman: That is going well beyond.
Mr Hoyle: It is very hard when
you are not a democrat.
Q45 Chairman: Yes. He is an autocrat,
we know that.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: By the
way, you say I am not a democrat. I am. The trouble is I am disenfranchised:
I do not get a vote any more.
Q46 Mr Hoyle: Quite right too.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: I am
not saying it is wrong. I am merely telling you—
Q47 Chairman: He gets lots of votes
in the House of Lords.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: Could
I say one other thing, because you did level one point at me,
Chairman, and I would like to deal with it. UKTI as currently
constituted is doing a very, very good job. It is following its
five-year plan. Its people have, I hope, got their tails up and
realise—
Q48 Chairman: Mick is going to ask
you in more detail later—
Lord Jones of Birmingham: But
I would not want you for one minute to put the words in my mouth
that I think half of them should be sacked. That is not what I
said.
Q49 Chairman: I have one specific
question on UKTI. You have said there are too many civil servants
but you have said that UKTI provides stunning value for the taxpayer.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: I do.
Q50 Chairman: And you still believe
it provides stunning value for the taxpayer.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: I do.
Q51 Mr Hoyle: So the answer is: sack
half the Foreign Office and increase the number in UKTI.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: Or change
the accent of what the Foreign Office do a little bit more. If
I may say something else, it is not just the Foreign Office. Our
higher education system can be sold around the world better, so
why do we not have promotional sales people in the Department
of Education? Our environmental engineering companies in the country
are first class. They are doing some fabulous stuff in China and
in India and in Latin America, making money for the country. It
is enlightened self-interest. Why do we not have trade promotion
people at the Department of Environment? Energy is another one.
It should not just be put into a box called "Trade Promotion
UK and a bit of Foreign Office, thank you very much". The
whole ability for this nation to trade itself out of its current
problems is something the entire government department, Civil
Service, regions and countries in the UK should espouse and praise,
not, "Oh, it's over there, we'll let those people do it.
What are they called? UKTI. They can do it". It should be
a common purpose of the Government.
Q52 Mr Hoyle: Fewer mandarins/more
experts.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: Yes.
Fewer mandarins/more experts, but more important than both of
those, more people on the ground in the country doing the business.
Q53 Mr Clapham: Promoting trade and
branding the UK is very important and the DTI reference tended
to be a brand for the British trade. Do you feel that changing
to that terrible acronym "DBERR" had a detrimental impact
to the branding of UK business abroad?
Lord Jones of Birmingham: I do
not think DTI was seen abroad in the same way as you and I would
have seen it here, actually. I do not think that was the brand
that was recognised. I think the brand UKTI was beginning to get
recognised, but that was early as well. That is very new. That
is only five/six years. I think the Foreign Office would be the
brand overseas, and the companies themselves. There are some amazingly
big companies that are associated with Britain. DTI was certainly
seen at home. When the name was changed—I will put my hand
up here—I was asked my opinion before it was announced,
what did I think, and I wanted the word "business" in
it and I wanted the word "enterprise" in it. I did not
have the final say—nor should I, that should be for other
people far more important than me—but I was pleased to see
that the word "industry" went, because "industry",
to me, conjures up ideas of dirty factories and cobblestones and
things that kids do not want to do—the old cliche of a teacher
saying, "Work hard and you will end up in a place like this"
and all that stuff. I think you and I would agree that our vision
of manufacturing is that it is quality, clean, innovative. It
is business. I am glad that industry went. I wish "trade"
had been kept for all the reasons we are discussing. It would
be wrong of me just to say that I thought BERR was completely
wrong. The words "business" and "enterprise"
I was very pleased to see.
Chairman: We will ask some questions
about the structure in which you operate in BERR, because you
are still playing a role for the Government now, and then move
on to questions of UKTI.
Q54 Mr Oaten: You talk passionately
about what you think needs to be done and you talk passionately
and proudly about your period as a trade minister. Do you miss
it? Do you regret not being in that post at the moment?
Lord Jones of Birmingham: No.
I miss the people sometimes because they are first-class people
with a wish to do the job. Interestingly, I miss the ability to
stand up overseas—I am proud of my country—and sell
it, but the business ambassadorial role, which we might discuss
in a minute, gives me that opportunity. I do not miss thinking,
when I say things, "I'm going to have Number 10's press office
on the phone in about 30 seconds" when I sit down. I do not
miss that.
Q55 Chairman: What were they asking
you about, the press office at Number 10?
Lord Jones of Birmingham: Usually?
Q56 Chairman: Yes.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: Well,
because I did not have a political career and I had no political
ambition, it enabled me, of course, to do the job in a different
way, positively. It also meant I spoke my mind a little bit more
than most would, so that is an interesting time. I do not miss
the red boxes on a Saturday morning, no. But I would miss it desperately
if I did not still have the chance to bang the drum for the country.
Q57 Mr Oaten: You are doing that
at the moment through two roles, as far as I can understand. I
am a bit confused about them, but you have the National Economic
Council.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: No,
I have not.
Q58 Mr Oaten: You are not on the
National Economic Council.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: No.
Do you know, perhaps this could go on whatever record this is
for ever. On the day when that reshuffle came about, October 4,
the Prime Minister formed the National Economic Council. I think
the Prime Minister chairs it, but the idea was that Lord Mandelson
came in—
Q59 Mr Oaten: It is a full Cabinet
Committee in its own right.
Lord Jones of Birmingham: Sure.
That was one thing, the National Economic Council. Then another
thing was this group of 17 Business Ambassadors for UKTI.
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