Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
180-188)
NATIONAL FEDERATION
OF SUBPOSTMASTERS
31 MARCH 2009
Q180 Mr Hoyle: That is interesting.
But is it really a way forward to expect every subpostmaster to
suddenly become a bank manager, offering the wide range of financial
services? I believe they can do it but I would like to hear what
you think on behalf of your members.
Mr Thomson: What would happen,
I reckon the biggest offices would be the financial advisers,
for example, like you have in the banks. The rest of the network
should do every other transaction, so we believe that the 12,000
should do as many banking transactions as possible. But because
the Post Office is a trusted brand, because we are used to looking
after money, because people feel secure when they come in, we
also have fortress positions, because of all these reasons, because
we sign the Official Secrets Act, in the Republic of Ireland,
rather than everyone having to go through training from the start,
the staff were given what you call grandfather rights, so they
had to get some training, but that training was far less rigorous
because of their specialisation, postmasters specialise in handing
out money. They have done it for years for government, we still
have 20% of the benefit market, we are honest, we sign the Official
Secrets Act, we do not talk about our customers, we have great
integrity, and I do not think it would take much to build on that
to become a Postbank.
Q181 Mr Hoyle: I agree and presumably
if you are in a rural area and you wanted to see somebody, somebody
could actually come into that post office, you could arrange an
appointment for somebody from the centre, a constituency manager,
whatever you want to call them. So it would be a way forward that
we can deliver services, we can open up banking back into rural
and urban areas where they have been neglected and where the banks
have retreated from giving true competition, is that fair to say?
Mr Thomson: Absolutely.
Q182 Chairman: Just a couple of quick
questions before we conclude. I was going to ask you about Essex
and Devon and Wales, but actually you have made your views very
clear in your written submissions so I think we can accept that
you are not enamoured of the Essex model, their long-term plan
of ownership, but in Wales though, I think we were all quite impressed
by the money being paid to help subpostmasters diversify and retrain
into new services they might provide, particularly food handling.
That kind of approach does commit itself to, I imagine, assistance
in retraining?
Mr Thomson: We think the Welsh
government, the Welsh Assembly, have really stepped up to the
plate both in terms of rates relief and grants for subpostmasters
as well, and we feel that the devolved assemblies in Northern
Ireland and Scotland should look at that model and certainly can
do more. But one of the disappointing aspects of this closure
programme is under network reinvention, there were grants to help
subpostmasters do up their offices, recognising that they have
not been paid the money to invest it themselves. I think what
is disappointing this time round, Peter, is that the Post Office
are going to put £40 million in upgrading 373 Crown offices,
and as we speak, not a single brass farthing into the rest of
the network. That is bitterly disappointing, and we have raised
that on numerous occasions. It is unfair, and if we want to have
the brighter, better post offices of the future, then there has
to be cognisance taken of the fact that subpostmasters need help
to create these better, brighter offices for the future.
Q183 Chairman: I do not think there
is a Crown office left in Worcestershire, so they are lucky ones
who do have one. The Post Office Essentials model, is it really
commercially sustainable? This is going back to the old question
about subpostmasters not getting enough money for their services.
Mr Thomson: There are 19 offices
in the trial for Post Office Essentials, and the jury is still
out. Does it make money for the Post Office? We do not know yet,
that is what the trial is doing. Does it lose less money? Yes,
it does. However, there is a very serious caveat. We think Post
Office Essentials can help the Post Office restructure the network
for the future, for a sustainable network. There is a danger that
if you take that model into too many branches by opening new branches,
that all you do is cannibalise the existing network, so Post Office
Essentials has a place, but that place, I believe, has to be tightly
controlled. I think what the government should be looking to make
sure is that the Post Office Essentials model can never be any
more than a certain percentage of the post office network, because
if it proliferates too much, then all you do is undermine the
offices that are there, so it has to be very carefully watched,
but it may have a future.
Q184 Chairman: Finally, looking to
our next witnesses in particular, I think we as a society, and
politicians, tend to underplay the importance of the post office
network to small business. We have had complaints from the small
business community about some of the services not being provided
appropriately in post offices, or not available at all, particularly
banking services, for example small business bank accounts not
available at the counter in post offices. That is leading our
witnesses rather, but is there anything that you as sub-post offices
would like to do more for local small businesses than you can
do at present?
Mr Jones: As small businesses
are growing up in rural areas they need access to services, and
particularly a route to market, and the Post Office provides that
at 12,000 outlets throughout the UK. I feel that business banking
could be improved and the services on offer in terms of current
account banking, cash withdrawals to pay wages, and that type
of thing, could be improved. I feel that it is becoming more important
that services are available locally to business. I am fairly familiar
with the Highlands of Scotland where people are making lifestyle
choices and running particularly IT business consultancies and
things like that from home, and they need to be able to access
services, so business banking definitely and probably improvements
in priority mail services as well.
Mr Thomson: Just to add to that
Peter, if in the future the Government were to award a contract
for something and the Post Office were going to do it for 12 pence
but PayPoint said they could do it for 10 pence, if the consequence
of that decision of going to the lower bid and not the most economically
advantageous price was that hundreds of post offices closed, then
small businesses would have enormous cost added to their daily
routine where rather than take their parcels or their banking
to a local post office they would have to travel miles and miles,
so there has to be an holistic approach by government.
Q185 Chairman: One specific question
and then we will have to close, I am afraid, because we are running
out of time. The small business community does say that sometimes
there are huge problems in Crown offices and franchised offices
for small businesses in queuing and taking time out of their day,
but they often say that even in sub-post offices the queues can
be long and they want dedicated counters for business services.
That is not going to be practical in many sub-post offices, is
it?
Mr Jones: As a sub-postmaster
I have got a choice. I can overstaff my office and have no queue
and not make any money, or I can not staff my office and have
a big long queue.
Q186 Chairman: Individuals quite
like the queues because they can chat in them and talk to their
neighbours.
Mr Jones: Certainly there are
people who value being in a queue in rural areas, but it boils
down to finding a balance, and that balance is very, very important
because striking that balance is the difference between success
and failure in running a post office. That is the way it is. At
times if we get a customer, particularly now with eBay, coming
in with five, 10 or 20 packets to send, it can be quite time-consuming,
so happily the Post Office are trialling a programme called Fast
Drop at the moment, and it is a service for business to be able
to walk up to a specific counter position, leave the mail there,
and the sub-postmaster stamps the receipt and then does the paperwork
afterwards.
Mr Thomson: In fairness to sub-postmasters
as well, for every time a post office is busy, there are significant
quiet times as well. People do not remember when they walked up
to a counter but they remember when they waited 10 or 15 minutes
in a queue.
Q187 Chairman: And those quiet times
are predictable broadly, are they not, over the pattern of a week
or so?
Mr Thomson: They are.
Q188 Chairman: Tell local small businesses
to come when they are quiet, that is the answer, is it not?
Mr Thomson: Many sub-postmasters
do have shops and pubs coming with their banking money at quieter
times when they can deal with it, so that is a practice on the
ground already.
Chairman: We have lots more that we would
like to ask you but we really are out of time. Thank you very
much. If you think there is something you have not said that you
would like to have said, and I do not think there is, I think
it is all covered in here but if there is something. We have particularly
asked for evidence on the combi-till issue which is an interesting
way of extending opening hours. Thank you very much indeed, we
are very grateful to you.
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