Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340
- 359)
MONDAY 15 DECEMBER 2008
RT HON
PAT MCFADDEN
MP, MS PHILIPPA
LLOYD AND
MS BERNADETTE
KELLY
Q340 Chairman: I think there was
a bit of irony in your answer just then, Minister.
Mr McFadden: If you want to put
together a list like that I think you always can. People can say,
"We have got parish councils, district councils, county councils",
and so on. You can always do that.
Q341 Chairman: But we do know what
they do. We are used to them.
Mr McFadden: Well, that does not
necessarily always make it right, just because you are used to
them. I think you can always put together a list like that. It
goes back to what you said to me about the boundaries. Some of
this is permissive but what is the overall idea behind this? The
overall idea behind this is to have local authorities and regional
development agencies working together better than they previously
have, particularly on the economic development front. One of the
advantages of having a single strategy rather than the separate
strategies that we have had in the past is that we have had the
RDA with its job doing the business in economic development, good,
that is fine, I think they do that quite well, but it has not
been aligned with what the local authorities have been doing through
the planning framework and so on which can have a major economic
impact. There is a potential economic gain here in the overall
aim of this. While, yes, you can list every body involved in this
and say that all looks over-complex, in the end there is quite
a simple idea behind this, which is to get the different bodies,
who are not the national government but at a smaller level than
the national government in a particular region, working together
for the economic good of that region. It is quite a simple idea
in the end and we are asking them to work together to produce
a single strategy going forward 10-15 years which takes into account
the main things that influence this in order to advance that.
Yes, there is a list but it is a simple idea.
Q342 Chairman: It seems to me if
the EPBs did their job well they could replace the RDAs.
Mr McFadden: That is another thing
which slightly clouds this debate sometimes, that everybody thinks
they lose if something else is set up. I will give you a more
common example, which is this city region debate.
Q343 Chairman: We are worried about
that in Worcestershire.
Mr McFadden: If cities are advancing
does that mean that regions are losing? I think that is an odd
way to think about it. Most of our major regions have got one
or two cities that are key drivers of growth. I tend to think
that the whole region benefits when a city drives forward, including
many places round about the city. I do not see this debate as
a zero sum game at all where every time somebody is given a responsibility
somebody else loses, or every time a new body is set up it means
everybody else loses. What we are trying to do here is get an
architecture together that reaches that central prize I talked
about, which is people at the sub-national level working to—
Q344 Chairman: I do not want to labour
the point because you made the point several times, but what I
am talking here about is helping understand what on earth is going
on, how decisions are being taken in the organisations that affect
their lives economically. One of the complaints we often hear
about RDAs is they spend their whole lives co-ordinating all the
other bodies out there to have a say in the issue. There is an
industry of co-ordination now and it seems to me that another
mechanism is being added. I had forgotten about city regions,
I am grateful to you for adding it to the list for me. It is another
thing to liaise with and more meetings to be held and highly paid
civil servants talking to each other about very desirable outcomes.
Mr McFadden: In the end I think
this is perhaps simpler than you suggest. This is about local
authorities and the RDAs working together.
Q345 Chairman: A minister can veto
a local authority walking away from that, I do not quite understand
that, but I am sure it is an issue I am sure we will get a note
about. Can I just one other factual question about EPBs. Can they
cross-regional boundaries? The EPB I would like set up in Worcestershire
is Herefordshire, Worcestershire and Gloucestershire because we
have three counties, the Three Counties Choir Festival, the Three
Counties Agricultural Society. Can they cross regional boundaries?
Mr McFadden: I do not see why
not.
Chairman: That would be helpful. That
would be good news. Thank you for that.
Q346 Mr Binley: I am beginning to
see a nightmare on a big scale here, particularly in the relationship
and working practices between the RDAs and LALBs. We have an Urban
Development Corporation in my part of Northamptonshire, they are
supposed to work with three local authorities and it has taken
them two and a half years to produce a core strategy and it still
is not out yet. This is the sort of problem I think you are creating.
I just wonder how you see them working together. I wonder why
you do not see the opportunity for division and dissent in this
particular operation. I do not know to what extent this new arrangement
will replicate regional assemblies quite frankly. You almost have
the same thing back again in a different form and in a different
name. I am, quite frankly, really very concerned about the future
of my county and my so-called region on the basis of this particular
relationship.
Mr McFadden: In the end, whatever
structure you have, if people do not want to work together or
take part in it you cannot force these things. This is about a
structure which we believe can add value. We have been round the
list of bodies, who is taking part and so on. In any structure
that deals with localities and regions, and the national government
in the end, there are going to be a number of bodies involved.
The success of it will be about the willingness of those taking
part to work together for the benefit of their areas. I am a bit
more optimistic than you—
Q347 Mr Binley: Clearly!
Mr McFadden: —that people
do want to do that. There have been a number of examples of good
cross-local authority working in the country. What we are trying
to do through the sub-national review is to give a sharper focus
to local authority emphasis on economic development and to bring
together spatial issues with economic development issues in a
way that has not been happening up until now. You took evidence
from some RDA chairs at one of your previous meetings and they
were telling you about the kind of clashes you can get where something
might make sense economically and the planners say, "No,
we have got a strategy that says you cannot do that". This
should enable those issues to be talked through properly and sorted
out.
Q348 Mr Binley: You are a great optimist
and I wish you well with it, but I am fearful. I think your background
in politics might inject a little fear into your mind as well,
quite frankly. Talking about the spatial planning responsibilities,
what support will you provide to both RDAs and local authorities
to undertake their responsibilities, for example, staffing a secretariat
and so forth, understanding the cumbersome nature of the LALBs
particularly in some of the areas we are talking about?
Mr McFadden: My generous friends
at CLG, apart from the answer to Mr Wright on the Economic Assessment
Duty, have been funding regional assemblies. These bodies will
not continue in the new set-up so funding that would previously
have gone to them can go to support these new structures for some
of the purposes that you have said.
Q349 Mr Binley: I hear you talk about
money but I do not hear you talk about management ability and
therein lies the real problem. You can spend as much money as
you like, Minister, but you know very well that unless you have
got the skills and the right people doing the job, and I have
not seen evidence that we do have that in our regional authority
anyway, and we certainly have not got it in our local government
cadre, unless you have got that expertise this job becomes even
more impossible and I do not accept the answer is just about money.
Mr McFadden: It is not just about
money but you have got recruit the right people in any walk of
life, I completely agree with that.
Q350 Mr Binley: I wish you well with
that one too. I think there is an awful lot of wishing going on
here for this thing to work properly. Can you give an assurance
to the private sector allay their concerns that additional planning
responsibility will not dilute the RDAs' focus on the needs of
business, particularly over the coming three years and particularly
recognising that budgets are being cut?
Mr McFadden: I talked to business
a lot during the consultation period for the sub-national review.
This is a reflection of the success of RDAs from a business point
of view. They said, "We like the fact we have got an organisation
here at the regional level which is business-led, is firmly focused
on economic development and we do not want that to be diluted".
I believe by combining the economic strategy with the spatial
and planning work that will actually help business. If you ask
any business person what one of their major frustrations is, they
will often tell you that planning decisions do not seem to support
economic development. That is one of the big gripes of business.
By combining the economic strategy with the spatial strategy,
I think that is an opportunity for economic gain and not one which
will see a dilution in focus. I do not think that business will
lose out from this, business has a great deal to gain from it.
Q351 Mr Binley: You have made my
very point. Can I suggest that you look at the performance of
the West Northants Urban Development Corporation in terms of the
sustainable communities' project and you will see exactly what
I am talking about in terms of lack of progress, lack of involvement
with the business sector, lack of support from the local community.
If you get that at the level you are talking about this programme
is doomed to failure and I do not want to see that happen.
Mr McFadden: Would not those shortcomings
that you are talking about be helped by making sure that the economic
and spatial come together so you do not get that kind of gridlock?
Q352 Mr Binley: But we have got that
together because we are in the business of supplying jobs as well
and it is not working. I just ask you to look at it and get a
handle on that because you might find better ways of doing what
you want to do. Can I ask the means by which Government will monitor
statements of consultation and engagement with stakeholders to
ensure that relevant interests are involved, because this has
not happened in the rather smaller example of the working together
process that you are talking about at regional level?
Mr McFadden: I think it is section
69 of the Bill that asks those responsible for putting together
the strategy, which is the RDAs and Leaders' Boards, to consult
with the relevant bodies in their area. This was raised by a number
of people during the consultation on the sub-national review.
You mentioned business and they clearly want to and should be
consulted, but they are not the only voice who should. There are
environmental partners, social partners who should also be consulted.
I think any region worth its salt is going to want to get buy-in
to a strategy that is as big and as important for it as this and
I believe they will do that and section 69 of the Bill asks them
to do that. What we could have done, which we did not do, was
produce a whole list of people you are supposed to consult with
and ask them to go through a great tick box exercise. I think
that would have been mistaken. Sensible people said, "Look,
we will do this. Leave it to the regions to decide exactly how
we do it, but we are used to working together in that way in our
regions". That was the view that we took. Business and the
other organisations I have mentioned should be consulted as part
of the joining up of the strategy and I think they will be.
Q353 Mr Binley: Let us talk about
the consultation document. How confident are you that the strategy
can be agreed within the timetable set in the consultation document?
Could you update us on what the decision regarding whether statutory
timetables are required will be made.
Mr McFadden: We have set down
our timetable and I hope organisations can meet that. Can I say
before—
Q354 Mr Binley: You hope!
Mr McFadden: Can I say before
we start that life does not always work like that, but we think
it is a reasonable timetable.
Q355 Mr Binley: My concern is all
of this will make it drag. That has been one of the thrusts of
my questioning to you. If it does, are you going to set a statutory
timetable? Are you going to force this issue through?
Ms Kelly: In advance of the Bill
entering committee stage we are hoping to set out some further
details about how we expect the policy to operate in a number
of areas, including how this process for producing a single regional
strategy will work. One of the things we are considering in that
context is whether some form of timetabling, whether statutory
or otherwise, would be sensible in order to make sure that we
do achieve the objective in a streamlined and reasonably timely
process. That is something we are setting out further policy on
in advance of the Bill's later stages.
Q356 Mr Binley: My final question,
Chairman, you will be relieved to know. Can you give us some insight
into the role and membership of the Examination in Public panels?
Ms Kelly: Typically, the Secretary
of State will appoint somebody who will chair the panel and typically
it has been someone who—
Q357 Mr Binley: That is a paid position,
I assume?
Ms Kelly: It is a paid position.
Q358 Mr Binley: What sort of money
is that? There would be a load of people in my area who want to
know what sort of money that is.
Ms Kelly: I would have to give
you details on what the figures are, I am afraid, I do not have
them to hand, but it is a paid position. Then relevant experts
as well to support in the process of testing the evidence.
Q359 Mr Binley: You must have thought
about the structure of it already. Give me some idea how it might
be made up? Where are you going to get the people from? Are you
looking at it in terms of sectional interest, regional interest?
How is it going to made up?
Ms Kelly: This is not a new model,
we already do Examination in Public on our regional spatial strategies.
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