Examination of Witnesses (Questions 360
- 379)
MONDAY 15 DECEMBER 2008
RT HON
PAT MCFADDEN
MP, MS PHILIPPA
LLOYD AND
MS BERNADETTE
KELLY
Q360 Mr Binley: I am aware of that.
Ms Kelly: I think we would be
starting with that model and considering whether it needed to
be adapted to incorporate the stronger economic growth focus that
we expect the single regional strategy to have. There is a sort
of tried and tested model that operates within regions and I guess
we—
Q361 Mr Binley: You are going to
carry on in the same way pretty much?
Ms Kelly: The concept of Examination
in Public is reasonably well-established and the Bill largely
creates the same legal framework. Obviously we need to be sure
that the panel doing the Examination in Public has the right mixture
of skills and expertise to look at the single regional strategy
in its entirety.
Q362 Mr Binley: Can you let the Committee
have your projected costs in terms of that particular exercise?
Ms Kelly: I would have to come
back to you with details on that.
Mr Binley: We would be grateful if you
could.
Q363 Chairman: Can I just be a bit
clearer about the Local Authority Leaders' Board, which is our
final area of questioning. I am sure this is just a technicality,
I do not understand local government as well Bernadette Kelly
does, I am sure, but the list of those participating does not
include unitary authorities. I suppose they count as district
or county for legislative purposes, do they?
Ms Kelly: I think we said that
the Local Authority Leaders' Board would be made up of a representative
group of local authority leaders.
Q364 Chairman: 66(3) says hat these
areas fall wholly or partly within the region:(a) a district council,
(b) a county council, (c) a national park authority, (d) The Broads
Authority. Do unitaries count as a district or county for these
purposes?
Ms Kelly: I think they are counties
for these purposes. I think the legal term is counties incorporates
unitaries.
Q365 Chairman: There is a lot of
flexibility given to the region here to decide who should compose
the Leaders' Board, as I understand it, so it will be a regional
scheme that suits the needs of that particular region?
Ms Kelly: It will be for the local
authorities to organise themselves into a Leaders' Board and put
forward proposals to the Secretary of State.
Q366 Chairman: This will not be without
controversy because there is tension between upper and lower tier
authorities.
Ms Kelly: Indeed.
Q367 Chairman: It will not be a straightforward
exercise.
Ms Kelly: There may be tensions
obviously in some regions, but what we hope is that there will
be an incentive here for local authorities to work together to
come up with a sensible proposition.
Q368 Chairman: The Local Authority
Leaders' Board is now part of the decision-making process rather
than scrutiny organisations?
Ms Kelly: Yes.
Q369 Chairman: So local authorities
are out of scrutiny of regional activity, that is entirely up
to parliament to do now?
Ms Kelly: The single regional
strategy is not about scrutinising, it is about developing the
framework.
Q370 Chairman: Originally it was
thought that the Leaders' Boards would be doing a scrutiny job
on the RDAs but that is no longer the case, that has now changed?
Ms Kelly: They are now jointly
responsible with the RDAs, so it is a joint duty.
Q371 Chairman: So that is down to
these regional select committees that we are setting up in the
House. Any news of membership of them yet, Minister, do you know?
Have you heard yet?
Mr McFadden: Not that I have heard.
Q372 Chairman: I am told that when
this Government came to power there were 200 select committee
jobs available to members but now there are 400. Do you think
we will have a little bit of a practical challenge on our hands
in actually finding the time to do all of this scrutiny work?
Mr McFadden: That is what is said.
Let us see how it rolls out.
Chairman: Yes, let us see. I think that
is one thing we will be revisiting.
Q373 Mr Wright: Can you just elaborate
on what is meant by the investment planning approach?
Mr McFadden: This is really when
an RDA may have money for a particular project and decides to
partner with someone to deliver that at sub-regional level. That
is what investment planning is around really. It need not be the
RDA that directly carries out and spends the money. They can decide,
and we are used to this in our constituencies, where the RDA ask
another body to deliver a certain project. That is what that is
about. The RDA will remain accountable for the money spent, of
course.
Q374 Mr Wright: Would that be public
or private or a mixture of both?
Mr McFadden: It could be both.
Q375 Mr Wright: So there is no criteria
laid down in terms of the partnership approach?
Mr McFadden: It is all round the
debate around delegation of funds and so on and investment planning
is about spending money at the sub-region level but spending the
RDA's money, so the RDA would remain accountable for the money
that was spent but it might make sense in a particular project
to do that along with a local authority, to do that with a university
or another body.
Q376 Mr Wright: Some concerns have
been raised about the new powers for the local authorities. There
has been some concern expressed over whether or not the local
authorities have got the skills and expertise to carry out their
new duties. Can you comment in relation to those concerns? Obviously
the local authorities have asked for a presumption that they have
already got those skills and expertise whereas the opposing view
is they have not got the skills and expertise there already. Who
would be responsible for judging whether or not they are capable
of carrying out their duties?
Mr McFadden: I think I said in
response to your earlier question about Economic Assessment Duty
that I thought most fair observers would say that there were some
excellent local authorities on this front who carry out economic
development functions very well and there are other areas where
it has been a weaker performance. Part of the reason for having
that economic assessment duty is to raise the profile and raise
the focus of these issues in local authorities. Part of the whole
rationale of this sub-national review in bringing together spatial
and planning work with the economic work is precisely to focus
local authorities more closely on that need for sustainable economic
development, which is the phrase used over and over again in the
SNR. If you are asking me is there an issue of capacity in some
local authorities, I think the answer is yes, there is, but the
structure of the SNR is designed to raise that by fostering a
focus at the very local level through the economic assessment
duty and at the regional level through the Leaders' Board and
the single strategy.
Q377 Mr Binley: Will it be the Leaders'
Board who will determine whether or not an authority has got the
skills and expertise to carry out the extra duties they have got
in terms of the arrangement with the devolved powers?
Mr McFadden: They have all got
their economic assessment duty.
Q378 Chairman: There is a delicate
balancing act here, is there not, between economic efficiency
and democracy. I think the business community were all rather
up for taking control of the whole planning system and dictating
to people where houses and swimming pools, railways and roads
should go, and I put to them that was not really what we did in
a democracy and sometimes democracy has rather untidy outcomes.
I know what the answer is going to be to this question but I still
ask it. Do you think that democracy will be well-served by these
new arrangements? Will these Local Authority Leaders' Boards encapsulate
properly and make sure the balance between the legitimate concerns
of local people and the legitimate expectations of business are
properly met?
Mr McFadden: It is a serious question
and it is at the centre of all this. The Government's thinking
evolved on this as the consultation took place and the process
went through. Some of the responses to the consultation said,
"We think the local democratic voice is absolutely critical,
perhaps on the planning issues and we want to keep that".
At the same time, to go back to what Mr Binley was saying, you
have got business saying, "Some of our experiences of planning
have not been fantastic and we want a sharper economic focus".
In the end what we have asked local authorities and RDAs to do
is to work together on this. There is nothing more directly accountable
than elected local authority leaders, they are there and it is
their role in this to be that democratically elected voice. I
think there is an accountability of RDAs because they are accountable
to the elected government of the day for what they do as well,
so I do not accept that they are free-ranging out there and answerable
to no-one. The structure that we have set up asks the economic
and the local authority to come together hopefully with the benefit
from both points of view and what we want to see as the end result
of this is a single strategy that better serves the needs of the
region as a whole and a raised focus on economic issues from local
authorities. We want both of them to be talking to their relevant
partners in the region, be they business, social or environmental,
in drawing that up and making sure there is proper buy into it.
Q379 Chairman: That seems a rather
neat place at which to end the questions, unless my colleagues
have points they want to raise or you, Minister, have points you
have not made.
Mr McFadden: No, I am very happy
to leave it there.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed
for your time and trouble.
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