Examination of Witnesses (Questions 512-519)
THE BARONESS
MORGAN OF
DREFELIN
29 OCTOBER 2008
Q512 Chairman: Minister, now that
people have settled down, may I welcome you to this sitting of
the Committee. We are very pleased to see you. It is your first
time in front of us and, as I understand it, your first time in
front of a Select Committee.
Baroness Morgan: Absolutely, yes.
Chairman: I hope that you will find it
an enjoyable experience.
Baroness Morgan: I am sure that
I will.
Q513 Chairman: As you know, this
is the final sitting of what has been a long and thorough inquiry
into looked-after children. After this meeting, we shall begin
writing our report so this final sitting is very important to
us. We want to give you a chance to say something about looked-after
children or your brief if you want to, otherwise you have the
option to go straight into questions.
Baroness Morgan: I should be delighted
if I started by saying a few words, but I wish first to thank
you for inviting me to give evidence.[1]
You have been doing an enormous amount of work with the inquiry
and, for me coming into the role, it is incredibly valuable to
know the insights of the Select Committee at this stage. I also
value the opportunity to make it clear at the outset that the
Government's ambition for all children to have a safe, happy and
loving childhood is very strong. We want to see children able
to grow up to achieve their full potential. While our ambition
is for all children, we feel it most keenly for those young people
who are in the care of the state itself. We feel that they look
to us as their parents who have, for whatever reason, been unable
to fulfil their parental role. Everyone involved in running the
care system from social workers to Ministers share the enormous
responsibility of filling the vacuum in the lives of children
whose parents have not been able to fulfil that role. Central
to our Care Matters agenda—which you have been looking
at closely—is the desire to give looked-after children greater
stability and to take their wishes into account when decisions
affecting them are made. I see that as a very high priority. Over
the next year, we shall continue to put Care Matters into
practice through a host of regulations, statutory guidance and
the inspection and performance frameworks for local authorities
and other providers. The Children and Young Persons Bill is, I
believe, the appropriate legislative framework for driving this
change, but we will also work closely with local partners and
use pilot schemes across the country to ensure that good policy
turns into good practice. We will report to Parliament through
the ministerial stocktake. That will be on an annual basis and
is an important part of the whole picture. We recognise that although
there are some good local authorities and practices that lead
to improved life chances for children in care, there is inconsistency
across the system. I am determined that we should address those
areas of weakness so that in future, all provision is at the level
of the very best. Earlier this year we announced an investment
of more than £70 million over the next three years to improve
the quality of the social care work force. We are developing a
longer-term strategy, bringing together experts from across the
professions to create a comprehensive and joined-up children's
work force for the future. That was highlighted in the Children's
Plan. It is clear from work already done that there is no quick
fix solution to improving the lives of children in care. It requires
a combination of legislative action, regulation, financial investment
and the personal commitment of thousands of professionals and
carers. It means ensuring that looked-after children get better
parenting from everyone in the system. As a new Minister in the
Department for Children, Schools and Families, I look forward
to playing my role in what is a long-term, difficult but vitally
important area of work. I look forward to working with the Committee,
and I hope to be as helpful as possible to your work. I look forward
to seeing your report and responding positively to the work that
you have done.
Q514 Chairman: Thank you. That
was most welcome. We have looked at this area and it is, as you
said, extremely complex. We do not think for a moment that there
is any quick fix. However, is there a level of accountability?
It is frustrating that there is no real level of accountability,
other than ministerial accountability which, with ministerial
churn, changes relatively often. I hope that you will be with
us for a long time, but you know how these things work—Ministers
often move. We have taken evidence and gone round the country
looking at the care system. Sometimes there is a refreshing innovation
such as the virtual school, where a head teacher looks after all
children in care in the local authority area. There are signs
of accountability—there are people responsible for some
dimension of every child in care in an area—but nationally,
is there a way to draw that together? Could there not be a responsibility
that was longer running and more stable than the churn of the
ministerial office?
Baroness Morgan: Ministers may
come and go, but the office and accountability remain. Through
the creation of the Department for Children, Schools and Families,
we have created an important and integrated locus for all issues
and concerns for children. That is an important starting point,
and it has been much strengthened by the work of the Children
and Young Persons Bill. The use of the new national indicator
set, an empowered Ofsted process and statutory guidance and regulation
will create a legal framework that will create transparency at
a local level about how services perform. The work in our Department
will be drawn together through the process of a ministerial stocktake.
That will be an annual event, and the first will take place next
September. I will lead it with Ministers from the Department of
Health and the Department for Communities and Local Government.
In effect, we will draw this framework into an event where we
will hear from young people, professionals and our partners in
local government. We will look at the progress of the pilots and
the policy and practice agenda across the board. We will report
to Parliament annually so that it can see how effectively we are
moving forward this complex agenda.
Q515 Chairman: We would not underrate
for a moment the importance of ministerial accountability. Could
you describe the reporting lines that lead to you and how you
draw such matters together? How does the system work when people
say that there is a problem or challenge in the health needs of
children in care? We see reports that this matter is patchy with
a minimal level of care in some authorities. How do the reporting
lines in health compare with those in education or criminal justice?
When you march into your office, who is sitting there that you
can tell to do something or ask a question of such as, "What's
this about all responsibility for children in care going as soon
as they are in the criminal justice system?" When there is
no access to child psychologists or clinical psychologists for
children in care, who can you go to and say, "Look, find
out for me what is happening in the health sector."?
Baroness Morgan: One of the things
that I would do—the first, really—is ask our director
general for children's services to provide me with a full briefing
on what the policy position should be. I would not shy away from
picking up the phone and talk to fellow Ministers in the Department
of Health about what the position is. An important step we have
taken is to establish a programme board in the Department to monitor
the progress of the entire policy area of looked-after children.
That will have independent members. We do not have problems with
looking into one-off questions or concerns. The question is how
we can drive forward in systematic way an agenda that results
in palpable improvements in services for looked-after children
locally. There is an enormous policy agenda. I pay tribute to
my predecessors Kevin Brennan and Beverley Hughes, who took forward
Care Matters, the Green Paper, the White Paper and the
Bill. The framework is there, but the issue is driving forward
that change and providing the right framework for local authorities
in guidance and regulations. The whole library of guidance and
regulations is being reviewed in the light of Care Matters
and its implementation, which has been developed in strong partnership
with professionals. We have processes for dealing with ad hoc
issues, but the challenge is creating momentum so that change
is experienced locally in service provision.
Chairman: Minister, thank you. We will
come back to ad hockery later.
Q516 Mr Timpson: Everyone on the
Committee applauds the ambitious goals of Care Matters
and, as you have said this morning, the desire to drive forward
that agenda in a systematic way, but what has also become apparent
is that there are some gaps and deficiencies in what is being
proposed through Care Matters. One of those is the recruitment
of foster carers. We know that there is still a dearth of foster
carers: there is a shortfall of about 8,000. It is a perennial
problem, which has not been addressed. Relatively little is said
in Care Matters about how the Government can assist in
trying to recruit good foster carers nationwide. Given that more
than 70% of children in care are in foster care placements, why
does Care Matters not address that problem more thoroughly?
What can you, as the Minister, do about that to try to ensure
that there are enough good placements for children who need foster
care?
Baroness Morgan: You are absolutely
right to draw attention to the need to promote greater uptake
of foster caring, although I am not sure that I would agree that
there is not enough evidence on foster caring in Care Matters.
I do not think that we would say that there are anything like
enough foster carers. We as a Government do our bit to work with
local authorities to help them to recruit foster carers and to
provide advice and support. Part of that is making sure that the
role of foster carer is properly supported, and that foster carers
have a clear idea of what their role is and what they have to
offer. There needs to be clear agreement between providers and
foster carers about what is expected of them. We have been working
with the Fostering Network to help with the development of more
materials for local authorities to use to promote fostering. The
Fostering Network has produced campaign materials that are being
distributed to local authorities to help them with their local
recruiting campaigns. It has played a leading role in running,
for example, a campaign encouraging people to recognise the qualities
they have, which might help them to see themselves as potential
foster carers. You are right that more needs to be done to encourage
more people to come forward into foster caring, but I also think
that we as a Government have a role to play in ensuring that where
people do go into fostering, they understand what their role is
and that they can play a full part in working with the child's
school, attending parents' evenings and so on. There needs to
be clarity about their role. There is an awful lot more to do.
Q517 Mr Timpson: Is not one reason
why we still have this shortage the wide variation in support
to foster carers, both in type and quality, throughout England?
For instance, it is estimated that 40% of foster carers do not
receive any payment over and above the national minimum allowance,
so is it realistic for us to expect there to be an increase in
the number of people interested in becoming foster carers when
there is no national standardisation of the value of their role
or of their pay and conditions and the support they receive?
Baroness Morgan: We recognise
that there is an extremely diverse population of foster carers.
The arrangements for payments are extremely diverse, and we recognise
that that is in part because there is a wide range of training
needs and of needs of the child being placed. We recognise that
it is important for local authorities and providers to have flexibility
to meet those needs in the best possible way for the child. I
do not want in any way to detract from the incredibly important
role that foster carers play, and we must recognise it. We have
the national minimum allowance, to which you have already referred.
It is important for ensuring that no foster carers are out of
pocket because of the costs of caring for a child. It is a delicate
balance to strike. We need more foster carers. We need local authorities
and providers to be able to take account of the incredibly diverse
calls on foster carers, and we need that to be appropriate.
Q518 Mr Timpson: The other aspect
is the need to hold on to foster carers when we have them and
ensure that we do not lose them, because they have experience
of the system. The Committee has already heard evidence about
the role foster carers play and the responsibility they are entrusted
with. Many of those who gave evidence felt that delegating more
day-to-day responsibilities for looking after the children to
the foster carers would enhance both their role and, more importantly,
the experience of the children they care for. We heard many examples
of children being able to have their hair cut or being able to
have overnight stays. Do the Government intend, in trying to overcome
the risk-averse culture, to try to deal with local authorities
so that foster carers are allowed more responsibility and are
more trusted in their role, which after all is highly professional?
Baroness Morgan: You have touched
on a very important point about fostering and allowed me the opportunity
to say something that I think is really important: it is essential
that foster carers are clear about what is and is not delegated
to them and what their roles and responsibilities are. That is
very important for a foster carer. Knowing what their role is
and how they can engage with a school or the health services will
make the role much more fulfilling and allow them to make the
most of it in the interests of the child. That is why we will
be looking at amending the fostering service regulations to ensure
that there is a review of the foster placement agreement at least
annually, or sooner if there is a substantive change in the circumstances
of the placement. I think that regular reviewing of the placement
agreement will help foster carers to be absolutely clear about
their role and responsibilities, which is the right thing for
us to do.
Q519 Mr Stuart: May I take you
to the subject of leaving care? We have heard that in some local
authorities it is becoming more common for children of 16 and
17 to leave care. Do you think that there is a need for stricter
follow-up and concrete standards to ensure that local authorities
do not shy away from their responsibilities when young people
reach 16?
Baroness Morgan: We need to be
absolutely clear that the presumption should be that young people
aged 16 or 17 should stay in the care system, in a residential
placement or in foster care, until they are 18, unless there is
a special and particular reason for them not to do so. We are
particularly concerned about this issue, and, as you know, we
are running a number of pilots looking into people leaving care.
We are aiming to stop the poor practice—as we see it—in
some areas of allowing young people to leave care without understanding
the full implications of what it will mean for them if they are
placed in an inappropriate setting without support.
1 See DCSF written evidence published in the First
Report from the Children, Schools and Families Committee, Session
2007-08, Children and Young Persons Bill [Lords], HC 359,
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