Examination of Witnesses (Questions 160-179)
MARTYN COLES,
JEAN HICKMAN,
GRAHAM BADMAN
AND LUCY
HELLER
25 FEBRUARY 2008
Q160 Mr Chaytor: Of course. But in
the first four years, it is significant.
Martyn Coles: But it was under
£100,000 last year.
Mr Chaytor: Can I go into the reason
I want to raise this?
Chairman: You asked the question. Lucy
wants to answer it.
Lucy Heller: On transition funding,
all you are doing is giving the 200—the number has expanded
now—arguably most disadvantaged schools the chance to transform
themselves.
Q161 Mr Chaytor: Of course, but earlier,
it was said that there was no difference in the revenue funding
between Academies and non-Academies.
Lucy Heller: Studies state that
there is not.
Mr Chaytor: I raise this issue—
Chairman: Let me make the rules clear.
You ask a question, then I ask someone to answer the question.
Then you ask another question. This rapid fire does not give the
witnesses a chance.
Mr Chaytor: Can I ask one other question?
Chairman: Let Lucy finish the point she
was making.
Lucy Heller: I entirely accept
that we could all agree that in those transitional couple of years,
Academies get extra funding. We would all argue that they need
it in order to make that transformation.
Chairman: Now Graham wants to answer.
Graham Badman: Some Academies
get the income from endowment funds. The original Academies had
endowments that were attached to them and some of mine have just
that. There is an additional income stream from amounts that vary
between £1 million and £2, £3 or £4 million,
depending on how much they invest.
Q162 Mr Chaytor: Can I come to my
next question? I am sorry to be so persistent. Jean, in your earlier
answers, you talked repeatedly about the state sector, and defined
your school against schools in the state sector. How do you deal
with the increasing requirement from the Government and local
authorities to get this collaboration not only between schools,
but between schools, social services, health and the criminal
justice system, when you are so adamant about defining yourself
outside the state sector—
Jean Hickman: No, I did not—
Mr Chaytor: And yet, have a considerable
financial advantage that comes entirely from the taxpayer?
Jean Hickman: The definition of
my school is as an independent state-funded school. I am not outside
the state sector, it is a state school.
Q163 Mr Chaytor: So you are in the
state sector? Earlier you described other schools as being in
the state sector—
Jean Hickman: I am in the state
sector. I am an independent state-funded school.
Q164 Mr Chaytor: So you are within
the state sector?
Jean Hickman: I am both. I am
in an independent school within the state sector.
Q165 Mr Chaytor: But what does independent
mean if you are within the state sector?
Jean Hickman: That is for your
good selves to decide. You decided on calling us independent state-funded
schools.
Q166 Mr Chaytor: Can I get to the
heart of the question which is in the context of the establishment
of children's trusts and the development of children's services
generally? That was not there in 2002 when the first Academies
were established and when autonomy and independence were the absolute
heart of the Academy project. How do today's Academies now deal
with the emerging children's services agenda?
Jean Hickman: I was in one of
the 2002 schools. I opened in 2003 but I was in post in 2002.
The first thing I did was to become part of the secondary head's
forum in Walsall. We have governors who transferred across from
their predecessor school and we were very insistent that our school
was not going to stand alone as an island outside of the state
schools, as you wish to call them. Consequently, there are now
18 secondary schools in Walsall, and I am very much part of that
group. I collaborate on all fronts. I am no different from any
other school except that I am an independent state-maintained
school, not an LA state-maintained school. With respect to your
point about funding, may we please be very cautious about identifying
what the transfer costs are? A capital build is a capital build.
We cannot then expect a school to function without laboratory
test tubes or without books. That transitional funding is actually
resource funding. It is not additional funding to the Academy.
Consequently, I will absolutely not agree that we have had any
more money than any other school in Walsall since we opened on
1 September 2003. The transitional funding was setting up moneys
for books, test tubes and chemicals and so on. A school cannot
function without such things.
Q167 Mr Chaytor: No, I am sure, but
do new build non-Academies get the same level of transitional
funding?
Jean Hickman: Certainly in the
world in which I work they did. When I put up new laboratories
in Cheshire we had additional funding to put things into those
laboratories, so yes they do.
Q168 Mr Chaytor: Is it the same level
as the funding—
Jean Hickman: I am sorry, I am
way out of date on such things.
Chairman: Anyone else want to come in
on that?
Mr Chaytor: May I ask Graham about the
issue of—
Chairman: Sometimes I watch to see whether
people want to answer the original question. Does anyone want
to come in on the first question?
Martyn Coles: I agree with Jean.
I see no reason why my school or Academy cannot be fully involved
in the wider issues of the Children's Plan and local Children's
Trust. We are involved in discussions with social services and
the local authority as well, and linking in with those just as
much as any other school. We are a state school.
Q169 Mr Chaytor: Can I ask Graham
about this from his perspective—the local authority perspective?
Is there a difficulty about the autonomy of Academies in respect
of the children's services agenda?
Graham Badman: I do not think
that there is in the Kent context. Kent is a sponsor, and I am
a governor of three, so they are kept within that family in that
sense. You probed me about Kent. On the development of locality-based
children's services, in September, the children's trust will have
been in being for 18 months and we will have 23 local boards managing
everything from the commissioning of tiers 1 and 2 child and adolescent
mental health services support through to welfare speech therapy.
All will go into that locality structure. That money passes through
the local authority and down through the children's trust. It
will be multi-agency. Some will come out of health; it does not
all come from us necessarily. Where an Academy takes a disproportionate
share, we expect it to pay for the services. If there are services
above and beyond that which they took out of the local authority,
or for which they have not contracted back, we would expect it
to contract back. So far, they have all indicated that that would
wish to do exactly that. There will be variations between local
authorities. In my case, I do not think that their role is a problem.
However, I would also argue, if you expect Academies, on their
own, to change communities in perpetuity, that they will not.
A wrap-around structure of children's services will offer different
engagement to families and make a difference alongside what Academies
do, which is why I said in my opening comments that you cannot
separate what Kent is doing on Academies—I am speaking specifically
about Kent—from our anti-poverty strategy, which includes
the setting up of credit unions, and the way in which we are developing
children's services on a locality model.
Q170 Chairman: Lucy, do you want
to come in on that?
Lucy Heller: No.
Q171 Mr Chaytor: One of the examples
of collaboration between schools that you mentioned earlier was
the transferral and sharing of teachers. I switch this question
to Jean or Martyn. Does that happen in your areas? Is there any
exchange of teachers? Does the issue of the different conditions
of services between Academies and non-Academies create difficulties?
Jean Hickman: We do not exchange
teachers, but we have combined professional development opportunities
and work with children on a variety of aspects. However, we do
not exchange teachers. I do not quite know what you mean by that.
However, we work on an awful lot of fronts with teachers from
colleague schools.
Martyn Coles: Similarly, we do
not exchange teachers, although that will certainly be coming
in within the next two years with the 14 to 19 agenda. We will
also be working with local schools. We are talking about that
at the moment. On your point about pay and conditions, I pay pretty
much according to national pay and conditions. That would not
be an issue, if it happened.
Q172 Mr Chaytor: Absolutely finally,
regardless of the pay and conditions issue, do you detect any
effect on recruitment within the local authority area, because
of the existence of an Academy?
Martyn Coles: Students or teachers?
Q173 Mr Chaytor: Teachers. Are the
best teachers applying to Academies? How does it impact on the
local teacher labour market?
Martyn Coles: I do not think that
it has had an impact, but quite a few local schools have now become
Academies. It has not had an impact, as far as I am aware.
Jean Hickman: I think that there
has probably been an increase in the quality of teachers applying
to the borough of Walsall as a result not just of the Academy
but of changes in Walsall over the past six years, which the Academies
helped to catalyse.
Chairman: Andy, a quick one on this point,
otherwise you will have to wait.
Mr Slaughter: I thought we were on four.
Chairman: We are, but you are not down
for it.
Q174 Mr Slaughter: It is a bit unfair
on you, because I have one of your Academies in my constituency—Burlington
Danes. I will have a conversation after the meeting with you about
it, except on this one point. I do not think that it is fitting
into the LEA network of schools very well. I have hopes for it.
It has traditionally been a good school, it is a good site, the
building is excellent. Obviously, it lost its head teacher and
so on. I have never had any communication at all from ARK. I am
in and out of all the other schools all the time. I only get into
Burlington Danes when I force myself upon them. I get the impression
that you are looking after it as part of a little ARK network
of schools, not as part of the LEA network. The LEA is not doing
its job, because I think that it has shifted the problem over
to you, so it is not trying to integrate you, and I do not feel
that you are trying to integrate yourselves. There are knock-on
effects on other schools nearby that have a much more deprived
intake.
Lucy Heller: I would quarrel on
the deprived intake—
Q175 Mr Slaughter: Well, Phoenix
High School, which is next to you, has two and a half times the
number of free school meals that you have.
Lucy Heller: We have a problem
with the under-reporting of free school meals. It is absolutely
clear that, from an ARK perspective, we see ourselves as a community
school in all but name. We are clear that Burlington Danes, like
any other ARK school, is part of the family of local schools and
Hammersmith schools. It is equally fair to say—this is the
only caveat to add to the discussion about collaboration—that
the first order of the day for any transition school is to focus
on getting stability in the school. It is fair to say that Burlington
Danes' first focus has been on getting things right in the school.
We would be delighted to meet you. We are
meeting the local authority later this month. So we are very happy
to have those discussions. Certainly, that has been our experience
in relation to our commitment, and that would be the view of Southwark,
Westminster, Lambeth and the other boroughs that we are working
with.
Chairman: Sharon, you have been very
patient.
Q176 Mrs Hodgson: I have a question
about SEN, about which I am particularly interested. PricewaterhouseCoopers
found that although the data show that Academies tend to have
a higher proportion than average of children with SEN and children
from disadvantaged backgrounds, there is a worrying trend towards
these proportions falling and it says that this is an issue. The
comparison of the 2007 performance data statistics for Walsall
and the Southwark Academies is interesting. For instance, the
Walsall SEN statistics show a move towards the worrying trend
of reducing the number of SEN pupils, with 10% fewer SEN students
than average on its roll, compared with the City of London Academy,
which shows the more usual trend of having an above-average number
of children with SEN: 26% of its pupils have SEN, which is more
than 6% above the 19.5% average. Can you comment on these statistics
and say whether you agree with PricewaterhouseCoopers' evaluation?
I should particularly like you, Jean, to comment on whether having
10% fewer than average SEN students shows a comprehensive intake.
Chairman: Let's go for it, then. However,
all answers must be sharp and quick at this time of night, I am
afraid.
Martyn Coles: I completely agree
with your figures. It is representative of the area, which is
the key issue. We talked earlier about us becoming a comprehensive
school. Indeed, when I talk to colleagues—head teachers
do talk about taking what we might call our fair share of pupils
with special needs—I find that those pupils are distributed
well across the borough and we take a full part in that. If I
were to say that 48 families had nominated the Academy for next
year, 48 out of 180 would be a disproportionate amount. However,
the local authority is extremely good at distributing, in co-operation
with parents and it has worked well. Certainly, in the early years
we had even higher numbers—quite a significant number—but
it has steadied out now and I am happy with the way that it works.
It is about 10% of the intake each year.
Jean Hickman: Ours is representative
of Walsall schools. You need to look at Walsall schools, not at
Academies. Look at the other 16 comprehensive schools in Walsall
and you will find that we take the same proportion of children
into the Academy as they do.
Q177 Mrs Hodgson: So Walsall does
not meet the national average.
Jean Hickman: It does not, because
Walsall does not believe in statementing.
Q178 Mrs Hodgson: Right. But your
figures also take in school action and school action plus, which
is not about statemented children. The 19.5% figure that I was
quoting includes school action and school action plus as well
as statemented children. So Walsall does not believe in statementing
and does not even believe in identifying children who have special
educational needs.
Jean Hickman: Correct.
Lucy Heller: Ours would be much
like Martyn's. Our figures tend to be consistent with local averages.
We would want to play our part in working with the local authority
and seeing that we have the right sort of number and that we do
a good job for all children.
Graham Badman: When you have a
strong partnership between schools, authorities should not be
afraid to use their powers of direction. We can direct admissions
where there are special educational needs or looked-after children,
and I do. That applies to Academies as well.
Q179 Paul Holmes: Surely you cannot
direct admissions to Academies. You can ask them to take the children;
you cannot direct them.
Graham Badman: Under the new code,
they would find it very hard to refuse the admission of a looked-after
child, for example.
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