Examination of Witnesses (Questions 282
- 299)
WEDNESDAY 24 JUNE 2009
BARONESS MORGAN
OF DREFELIN,
MARCUS BELL
AND ANDREW
SARGENT
Chairman: Minister, what a pleasure it
is to have you back in the Committee.
Baroness Morgan: Thank you.
Q282 Chairman: I was saying that
the last time you gave evidence, you had just taken over your
job, and it was really unfair to have you plunged into the Committee.
We were coming to the end of a report, and we knew a hell of a
lot about the subject and you had been in office for just three
days. We have watched your progress with interest, and we are
looking forward to a very good session on this particular subject
today. I welcome Marcus Bell and Andrew Sargent as well. We will
get started, but, as always, we will give the Minister a chance
to open the discussion or, if she would prefer, we can go straight
to the questions.
Baroness Morgan: I will say a
few words. I do not think that I will ever forget my last appearance
in front of you, Chairman; it was a great experience. It was a
very good learning curve for me and I was very grateful for the
opportunity. I am very pleased to be in front of you again to
talk about social worker training.
Chairman: I am glad to have such
consistency. From being a first Minister, you are now the only
consistent Minister—apart from the Secretary of State.
Baroness Morgan: Well, yes. I
have some great new colleagues to work with. I should like to
start by putting it on the record that social workers are one
of this country's most important resources and that their work
makes a real difference to the lives of some of the most vulnerable
people in our society. Equipping them with the knowledge, skills
and experience that they need is essential to ensure positive
outcomes for children and adults in vulnerable circumstances.
Social work training is a highly important matter across Government,
in particular for us in the Department for Children, Schools and
Families but also for the Department of Health and the Department
for Business, Innovation and Skills. We are all working closely
together right now. There are some very important and positive
things to say about the work that has been going on over the past
few years on the training of social workers. The introduction
of the social work degree and the associated bursary have reversed
the downward trend in applications for social work training to
the extent that now the numbers of entrants are around 40% higher
than they were five years ago, which is important. Also, we have
established the General Social Care Council as the regulatory
body for social work. The introduction of the protected title
of social work in 2005 and the remitting of work force delivery
organisations have meant that the supporting infrastructure for
social work is getting stronger. It is certainly stronger now
than it was previously. The social work partnership board, which
was established last year to work with higher education and employers
to improve the supply and quality of practice placements for social
work students, has also been important. As you know, Chairman,
in the last 12 months, work to smooth the transition from training
to practice through programmes of induction for newly qualified
social workers in both children and adult settings has begun.
You will be aware that the Government recently announced that
the initiative would be extended from September to include all
new children and family social workers and all those who can benefit
from it in the statutory and third sectors. All those are good
news for the profession and the people it serves, but there is
obviously an awful lot more to do, and I hope, Chairman, that
you do not detect any hint of complacency in what I am saying
about the challenge that we face. In the joint submission of evidence
from the DCSF and the Department of Health, the Committee will
have seen that we are aware of the concerns in the system about
the quality of entrants to social work training, the relevance
of training to practice, challenges in securing appropriate practice
placements and the preparedness of newly qualified social workers
for the task that they face. I also recognise that there is a
need to ensure that there is appropriate support and professional
development throughout a social worker's career if standards are
to continue improving and skills are to be retained in the profession.
That is essential. With that in mind, when the Secretaries of
State for Children, Schools and Families and for Health jointly
established a Social Work Task Force last year, they asked Moira
Gibb, who I know you have seen, to chair it and to conduct what
we have termed a "nuts and bolts" review of social work,
which will expressly include consideration of current training
arrangements. The task force has been asked to think widely about
what change is necessary in the system, and I can assure you that
the Government are prepared to consider radical reforms of social
work education if that is what the task force recommends in October.
In the meantime, of course, there are things that we can do to
address the immediate challenges. I could go through those, but
I have a sense, Chairman, that you might want to press on.
Q283 Chairman: Let us drill down
and see how we go. Rather than going on to a list, I would prefer
it if we could halt there. You can come back to this under questioning.
Baroness Morgan: May I just finish
by saying one little thing about funding? We have made strong
funding commitments. We recently announced a £58 million
social work transformation fund, which brings our total DCSF investment
in work force development initiatives to £130 million over
the current spending period. We are working hard to make sure
that every penny of that investment is put to good effect, is
spent in consultation with the profession and supports whatever
might come out of the Social Work Task Force. Those are my words
of introduction, and I am happy to drill down.
Q284 Chairman: Thank you very much
for that introduction, which has warmed us all up. There has been
a lot of activity, but there seems to be more activity than delivery.
There is quite a lot of discontent out there, judging by the oral
and written evidence that we have taken. The need for change has
been recognised, but it has been rather slow in coming if you
look at things holistically. Do you think that all the things
that you have mentioned this morning, including the task force,
will sort it?
Baroness Morgan: It might appear
complacent if I said that the Social Work Task Force would sort
it. Obviously, it brings together a really broad cross-section
of practitioners, experts, academics and so on, and it has a great
opportunity to make some important recommendations. The job that
we have is part of a long-term programme, which started some years
ago with the introduction of the degree and making social work
a protected title. We have made some significant progress, but—I
am sorry that this is a bit of old, hackneyed phrase—we
have got an awful lot more to do.
Q285 Chairman: May I give you some
advice, Minister? The way to get the Committee onside is to say,
"We are awaiting the report of your inquiry, Chairman. That
will sort the whole system out."
Baroness Morgan: If I may follow
your advice—I am always pleased to do so—this is a
particularly timely inquiry, because I have a sense that this
is now a moment where there is a great commitment across Government.
With the Committee's interest, with the Social Work Task Force,
and with the wider interest in local government and academia as
well—I think there is a genuine commitment from employers
too—all of us can work together to make the most of the
opportunities we have got.
Chairman: We have been absolutely amazed
by the quality of some of the people we have met and the evidence
we have had in this area. There is no doubt that there is some
extremely good practice and really fantastic social workers and
social work partners out there. The trouble is that what we have
found is very patchy across the 150 local authorities, and it
should not be. One of the enormous breakthroughs for the Committee,
if you remember the children in care inquiry—we have just
agreed this morning to publish the Government's response to that
inquiry—was when we started listening to children who had
been in care and who were in care. In this present inquiry, actually
talking to social workers, especially young social workers in
the first five and 10 years of the job, has been a real breakthrough
for a lot of members of the Committee. It is a tremendous strength.
They also seem to know what is wrong and how to fix it. As we
drill through some of the questions, I hope those will be raised
with you. Listening to some of the people in the profession is
where we have started, or should have started, but we have certainly
got round to it now. Derek, you are going to start us off with
the recent initiatives in the Social Work Task Force.
Q286 Derek Twigg: I would like to
go back to something you said before. We set up a task force to
go and have a comprehensive look at reform. But on the other hand
you are renouncing initiatives pretty frequently. So what was
the point?
Baroness Morgan: It would be unacceptable
for the Government to sit back and simply wait until the task
force had finished its deliberation. We are on a journey to develop
the social work profession, and the task force has been asked
to look at practice and how to improve it. We had already identified
some very significant steps such as rolling out the Newly Qualified
Social Worker initiative to all statutory and voluntary sector
providers in September. It was widely accepted that that was the
right thing to do. The feedback we have had from social workers
was that that was the right thing to do. The Social Work Task
Force is grappling with some very difficult challenges and thorny
questions. There are some straightforward things that we can be
getting on with, which we are getting on with. We are working
very closely with the task force to make sure that our communication
is good and that what we are doing does not pre-empt, or undermine,
what it might recommend later on. I know that Marcus Bell, who
is leading the workforce work in the Department, is itching, probably,
to nudge me on something, but we have taken on board, for example,
the research work. The task force made a report in May. We specifically
asked it to look at the computer system—the ICS system that
social workers used—and we have taken on board their early
recommendations. I have written to all local authorities about
how we want to evolve that system, so that it can be more practical
and flexible for social workers working on the front line. There
is a synergy there, but we have to give it time as well. Actually,
it does not have a lot of time; October is not that far away and
it has a very challenging programme. We have to get that right,
taking practical action now, but also responding—
Q287 Derek Twigg: So it is not looking
at the initiatives you have already announced. It has not looked
at them and been told, "Leave them, because they have been
done, and get on with the rest of it." Is that right?
Baroness Morgan: To be fair, we
have asked it to look at the barriers to good social work practice.
If the task force were to have anything to say about pretty much
anything we are doing, we would welcome that.
Q288 Derek Twigg: When I met a group
of new and experienced social workers in my constituency, the
overwhelming view was that one of the biggest problems was the
amount of paperwork that they had to do. Why not announce an initiative
on reducing paperwork, if it is one of the biggest problems that
social workers see?
Baroness Morgan: A lot of concern
around paperwork and bureaucracy is the computing system. That
was fed back to us, and the task force very clearly through a
range of public meetings, which were strongly attended by social
workers. The advice we had was that one of the best and most practical
ways to help social workers was to ensure that they were empowered
to use their professional judgment. Part of good social work practice
is about keeping good records, so we have to have a modern IT
system that is good, flexible and serves social workers in their
work. We have made significant changes to the integrated children's
system—ICS—computing system to do just that. These
days people worry more about the computing and how flexible it
is.
Derek Twigg: There is a vast amount
of information they have to put in—that is the issue—pages
and pages of it.
Baroness Morgan: Yes. We have
literally removed some of what are called exemplars in the system.
Because of the way they had been implemented locally social workers
were being forced to input page after page. The system now is
being freed up to be made more flexible and easy to use locally.
Q289 Chairman: When we talked to
young social workers on Monday, they said it was not so much the
computing and the 32 pages that they had to fill in every time,
but it was about having a professionally run and managed office
with some administrative back-up. Highly qualified people with
the qualities, background and training to make serious judgments
about very difficult cases were spending too much of their time
doing clerical and administrative stuff. Any well-managed organisation
would not have highly trained, reasonably well-paid people doing
that. Some people had good back-up. You could see the faces of
some of the others saying, "Wow, I wish we had that back-up
because it would free us to do the job we are trained for."
To use a terrible cliché, it's not rocket science, is it?
It's simple things, isn't it?
Baroness Morgan: I agree, Chairman.
We know that there are places in England—Hackney is one
that comes to mind—where they are looking at remodelling
social work practice, where you can look at ensuring that social
workers fulfil their professional role to maximum ability by defining
roles in the team. Yes, administrative support is something a
well-functioning team would benefit from.
Q290 Chairman: But it is also about
having the management expertise to say, "You are the expert
on that, why not deal with that case? You have different expertise,
you deal with that." So you are playing your team in the
way we play this team when we ask questions.
Baroness Morgan: I can do nothing
other than agree with you. That is why we are so keen to develop
the profession and to invest in supporting managers more. This
is something we have been doing. I must get the terminology right.
We are investing from the autumn in further support for coaching
of social work team managers and improving training to deal with
difficult decisions such as how you run a team, how you manage
resources, division of labour and how you ensure you have time
in your programme for bringing on the next generation of the profession.
This is something that concerns me. If you compare social work
with other professions, we need to see engendered in the profession
a responsibility among those who are serving in the profession
for bringing on the next generation: coaching, training and having
a shared ownership for training and development. Partnership between
employers and higher education needs to be further developed so
that the profession can tackle these kinds of challenges.
Q291 Chairman: Would you like to
meet our little group of social workers?
Baroness Morgan: I would love
to.
Chairman: We will arrange it.
Q292 Derek Twigg: You are a new Minister—indeed,
it is difficult in your first appointment as a Minister to get
to grips with everything and start to deal with all the issues.
What most surprised you about the issues that are facing us today?
What one issue particularly surprised you? Maybe one or two?
Baroness Morgan: I may be a new
Minister—I have been there since October.
Chairman: Most Ministers only
last two years.
Baroness Morgan: I know. So I
am coming up to—
Derek Twigg: Remember all the
last few months.
Baroness Morgan: The thing that
really struck me—I started a month before the tragic events
in Haringey unfolded—was how incredibly tough it is for
social workers when some of the things that they are dealing with
are the most difficult and challenging any profession ever has
to deal with. One of the things was also how we really need to
have a strong voice for social work. We need to have a strong,
confident profession. That struck me because I used to run a charity
in the health sector called Breakthrough Breast Cancer. The health
profession bodies and representatives are incredibly strong. We
all have very well-developed ideas about what those professions
do. It is the same with teaching. Ed Balls, the Secretary of State,
said that one of the things that he wanted to see was a strong
and confident social work profession, with social workers really
empowered to do their best, and that is what we need to facilitate.
There are so many elements of the challenge to grasp. We have
a lot to do, particularly on training and development.
Chairman: We are going to drill down
on that now. Can I move you across to work force planning and
national leadership with Fiona.
Q293 Fiona Mactaggart: If you want
a strong, confident social work profession, surely the wrong place
to start is excellent universities such as LSE and Reading giving
up training social workers and social work education, and the
Government being in a position where there is nothing they can
do about it?
Baroness Morgan: I would not want
to start there, no.
Fiona Mactaggart: That is where
we have started.
Baroness Morgan: I am not sure
whether that is where we started—that is where we are. It
is very disappointing that places such as LSE and Reading have
chosen not to continue to run social work degrees. What we can
do is ensure that we are doing everything in our gift to attract
highly qualified, excellent degree graduates into the profession,
that we work hard generally to raise the status of the profession
through communication campaigns, that professionals doing the
work at the moment stay in the practice and become advanced practitioners.
I would like to see the development of a strong link between experienced
advanced practitioners and higher education. I think that by involving
the profession very closely in higher education and research,
we can keep people involved in the profession who are interested
in research and continuing to practise. That is a way of doing
it.
Q294 Fiona Mactaggart: That is true,
but Dr Eileen Munro said that the current funding model makes
it "very unattractive for research-intensive universities
to" promote "social work training." We seem to
have a problem of leading from the back. Eleni Ioannides of the
Association of Directors of Children's Services told the Committee,
like you did, that we needed to get into partnership on this.
When we asked her how that could be done, she said that partnership
was "left to that accident, if you like, as to whether they
can make those partnerships and make them strong. That is why
I say that we need a little bit more national prescription and
leadership on the whole issue to take it forward. It can't be
left to those local partnerships, because they won't be"
started. I listened to your introduction. It was good and full
of optimistic bits, but I feel that we are putting money in but
not getting the bang for our buck on this, because we have not
said, "This is what needs to happen!" I think that the
Government should lead from the front, not the back.
Baroness Morgan: I am very happy
to have that challenge. We are very concerned to hear from the
Social Work Task Force about, as I said at the start, radical
reform, if that is what they propose. I do not sit before you
as a Minister scared to provide leadership from the front. I cannot
second-guess what the task force will say about higher education.
I shall be very surprised if it does not have something to say
about it. However, we are not leaving partnerships between higher
education and employers entirely to chance. We have set up the
social work development partnership and, especially in the development
of partnership, we are investing in placements, which are a very
important element of the social work degree. We expect 200 days
of practice placement time and are investing £5.5 million
specifically to develop better partnerships and better practice
placements. So we are ready. I welcome that challenge.
Q295 Chairman: I would like to bring
in Marcus Bell and Andrew Sargent. As we have learned, this is
a very polite sector. They are so nice to each other and won't
put the boot in—they just won't say nasty things. We had
to have a quiet private meeting with social workers to say, "What
are the three things that will sort this out?" We didn't
get that from much of the evidence we received. If they are so
polite, and there are so many organisations and people in this
partnership, the partnership won't come together unless you show
really determined leadership and, actually, are sometimes a bit
unpleasant and knock heads together. The witnesses have been really
nice, polite people, but they wouldn't say, "That's a rubbish
department!", or "This is the trouble with some of the
firms supplying agency workers." They won't do it. They are
terribly polite.
Marcus Bell: I would like to comment
briefly on the supply question. The Committee will know that,
in relation to the teaching profession, the Department takes,
in effect, a strategic national approach to supply. We try to
work out the likely national demands for teachers in the system,
and then procure from higher education institutions in a position
to do the work. That ensures that we have enough qualified teachers
coming through. That system has been in place in the Department
for some decades, in one form or another.
Chairman: And has survived, even
with the history of the absolute disaster of person-powered planning
in this country.
Marcus Bell: Possibly.
Q296 Chairman: It has always gone
wrong, hasn't it?
Marcus Bell: I wouldn't say that.
In recent years, at any rate, it has been quite good at predicting
demand for teachers and directing funding into institutions graded
for quality in terms of the teaching training that they provide.
In the past, we have not tried to take a strategic national approach
to the supply of social workers. Lord Laming said in his report
that that was something that the Department should consider, and
that is a recommendation that Ministers have accepted. I would
be surprised if that was an issue that the task force did not
have some views about when it brings forward its report in October.
Q297 Fiona Mactaggart: It is not
just a question of supply, is it? It is also a question of regulation.
We have clear regulatory bodies in teaching, which is one reason
why they have the voice that you suggest exists in some other
professions—a voice that does not exist in the social work
profession. It is not completely clear what national organisation
will lead work-force planning and the training provision regulatory
process. A number of things are going on at the same time, and
part of the ineffectualness is that we do not know who is leading
it or what they are going to do. Stuff is going on, and it is
progressive, but it is just stuff.
Baroness Morgan: I think that
you are right; there is an awful lot going on now. We are seeing
a crescendo of activity that started some time ago with the Care
Standards Act 2000 and the establishment of the General Social
Care Council, which is the regulator for the profession. I do
not want to spend too much time on the analogy with health, but
even if you have a regulator, the professional voice is not necessarily
that of the regulator. The work force planning is more about the
employers. Again, I don't want to prejudge what the task force
might say, but I don't necessarily see that we are going to end
up with one body that can do everything. I cannot imagine that
working, but I could imagine a system that is much more clearly
understood and that works much more effectively. Ultimately—this
is really what we ask the task force to look at—what are
the barriers to really high quality front-line social-work practice?
One of the big barriers is having a strong, competent profession.
We are having young social workers—not necessarily young,
but immediately after qualification—doing their degree and
coming into the workplace. We are losing far too many from the
profession far too quickly. The post-qualification year can be
very difficult. We know from our work in polling students when
they leave university that they do not feel prepared for what
they are going into. They are not staying and developing their
profession. So we need this comprehensive stuff; we have to do
it, but I agree that we do need a simple process in the long run
that everyone can engage with in the right way.
Q298 Chairman: Why don't you have
something like the Teacher Development Agency? Why do you not
have a proper focus on training? Wouldn't that be a good driving
force at the national level?
Baroness Morgan: We are waiting
for the report from the Social Work Task Force. We want to do
the right thing for social work.
Q299 Chairman: But it must have crossed
your mind that people will compare social work with teaching.
We do, as we are doing a parallel and independent inquiry into
the training of teachers. It is interesting how one informs the
other. Andrew, you have a background in school education.
Baroness Morgan: I am sorry, but
may I point out that Andrew Sargent is here to support me later
on questions about allegations?
Chairman: Right. I'm sorry; I
thought I was going to get two for the price of one. Andrew, you
must remain silent until the next section.
Marcus Bell: We have a body, in
relation to children and family social work, that carries out
a lot of the functions that the TDA does for the teaching profession,
in the form of the Children's Workforce Development Council. I
think that you have taken evidence from it. Among other things,
it is the body responsible for delivering a lot of the initiatives
that we brought forward over the last year in relation to social
work. There is a work force reform body. I think that there is
a wider point here. In pretty much every profession—in teaching,
social work and the medical professions—there is quite a
complicated set of institutional arrangements which are all rather
different from each other. There is typically a regulator, a work
force reform body and an inspectorate, which all do slightly different
things. Certainly in terms of what it has said so far, the task
force's view is that there is a big issue about leadership of
the profession. It may be partly an institutional issue, but there
are also some other factors at work, and I think that we are expecting
it to have rather more to say about that later on.
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