Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1
- 19)
MONDAY 2 MARCH 2009
ANN COFFEY
MP
Q1 Chair: Good morning. We are at
the very start of our oral evidence sessions of our inquiry on
markets. It is trying to get a general feel of it really, obviously,
from your position as the Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary
Markets Group. Can I start off by asking why you think that national
politicians should be interested in local markets anyway?
Ann Coffey:
Thank you very much for inviting me to give evidence. The All-Party
Markets Group is very excited about this inquiry and we hope there
is going to be a very good outcome for us. I think it is very
important for national politicians to be interested in markets
because local markets need national policies to support them.
Without the interest of national politicians, it is very difficult
for local markets to get the attention of government and the decision-makers
in government. We recently sent a survey form out to all 646 Members
of the House of Commons, and I was quite amazed at the response
we got; 200 Members of Parliament replied, which, as you know,
is quite a big response to a survey. It was quite clear that they
were very keen on giving support to the markets. When we analysed
the replies, they had expressed support for about 534 markets
across the UK, including the traditional markets, private markets,
farmers' markets, specialist markets. There was a big range of
markets that they were supporting and they were very supportive
of the role they thought markets played in their communities in
offering vibrancy to the town centres.
Q2 Chair: We are going to explore
that in more detail and, indeed, the contribution to national
policy goals in a second. Before we get on to that, did you get
any indication from your feedback from MPs that certain sorts
of markets are doing well and other types of markets are doing
less well?
Ann Coffey: It is quite clear
from a variety of evidence that it is a very mixed picture. A
study in 2005 concluded that general markets, the core of most
market operators' business, are in decline but there has been
significant growth in farmers' and other specialist markets. A
lot of the replies to the surveys actually mentioned the growth
of specialist and farmers' markets. That is clearly the case.
I understand, for example, as far as farmers' markets are concerned,
there are now about 800, which is a big rise in the last 10 years.
A lot of the Members of Parliament who replied to us represent
rural constituencies.
Q3 Chair: That is interesting. Was
it mostly them who mentioned farmers' markets?
Ann Coffey: No. If you look at
the farmers' markets, what the other MPs were mentioning was the
importance of fresh produce in the traditional markets. It was
not so much the farmers' markets versus traditional markets. It
was the interest in selling fresh produce, locally grown, and
that was in the traditional markets as well as the farmers' markets.
Q4 Chair: Just briefly, did you get
any evidence about the way the recession may be affecting markets?
Ann Coffey: Again, it is quite
anecdotal. I would imagine that if you have a market in a town
centre and that town centre is suffering from less shoppers because
less people are shopping, it will have an impact on that market.
We think that the markets are in a good place to deal with the
recession because, again, studies that have been done indicate
that produce sold in markets is sold a lot more cheaply than in
supermarkets. One study mentions 32 per cent cheaper. That enables
families who want to spend less on food to shop in their local
markets and still get the same quality of food but for less. So
I think the markets are in a very good position to take on the
challenge of the recession.
Q5 Anne Main: Could I just ask if
there is any symbiosis between what is on offer, the provision
of the market, and the shops nearby to wherever the market is
placed? You mentioned that traditional markets are declining but
farmers' markets are not and I just wondered if there is any wider
evaluation as to why that might be.
Ann Coffey: I think you would
have to look into the context of the problems that markets are
actually facing. What markets do and their role for a thousand
years has been providing food and commodities to people in towns
and villages. Today, of course, what is happening is that they
are experiencing a lot of challenges. Consumers have more choice,
consumers are more mobile, consumers have higher expectations;
they are quite attracted to modern centres and supermarkets. There
is a big trend to online shopping. Regeneration of the towns and
cities has often meant that the commercial centre of the town
has moved away from where the market is. So when you are talking
about a symbiosis, one of the great challenges is to centre the
market once again where people go to shop and also to take account
of the change in shopping habits. For example, if we want more
young people to shop in markets, we have to take account of the
fact that perhaps they like to shop where there are cafes, bars,
where they can sit and eat food and enjoy themselves.
Q6 Anne Main: So did comments come
through via MPs or anyone else presented to your group on parking
issues associated with city centres, traffic flows, for example,
rents for market stalls? Those are the sort of things I was hoping
you might give us a bit more feel as to why you think markets
may or may not do well in a recession.
Ann Coffey: I think it depends,
as I said initially, on where the markets are. There is an advantage
if you are in a town centre and there is a slight disadvantage.
The advantage of a market being centred in a town centre is that
people can see what they can buy and make a comparison; they can
move in and out of the shops and the market itself. Again, I think
it would be very anecdotal just to try and say such and such a
thing is happening to markets because of the recession, because
markets are so hugely diverse in their variety and location. I
would rather suspect it was a lot to do with a range of factors
as to how individual markets fared but, again, the positive thing
that there is in their favour is that they are cheaper, and the
evidence corroborates that. So if you want fresh produce at a
lower spend, the market is the place to do it.
Q7 Sir Paul Beresford: I have to
declare an interest. I am a member of the NFU and the success
of farmers' markets counts with my farmers. Do you have any evidence
of disquiet from the standard shops which fear the competition,
particularly as the situation at the moment economically for them
is a bit tight?
Ann Coffey: I do not know. For
myself, as the MP for Stockport, there have been some issues with
the standard shops, who do feel that the market is a threat. I
think that is actually part of the challenge for markets, getting
town centre shops and town centre regeneration to understand that
they are not in competition with each other. They are actually
something that can add to the success of each. For example, it
is not detrimental to one electrical shop to have another electrical
shop open business. It attracts people there if they are looking
for electrical equipment because they know they can go into two
or three places to compare and see what they can buy. I think
that is part of the challenge, convincing shops that it helps
because you bring in more people. The more people you bring into
a centre, the more likely they are to spend money in your shop
as well as in your market.
Q8 Anne Main: Could I ask you a series
of specific issues and ask you whether or not markets contribute
to the social developments. I will read each one as a headline.
How would you feel that markets contribute in terms of social
inclusion?
Ann Coffey: Again, market traders
often come from a great diversity of backgrounds. In my market
in Stockport we have longstanding traders and we have traders
from a range of the ethnic communities. Often people who shop
in towns come from a diversity of communities. It brings people
together in the oldest interchange in the world, which is buying
and selling goods. Often older people come to markets. Often older
people are very isolated at home but they will return again and
again to buy from a particular stall because they know the stall
and they know the trader. It helps people feel less isolated.
It helps them feel that they have somewhere to go that feels to
them as representing the community of the town that they live
in.
Q9 Anne Main: Are you saying there
is something specific about the bustle and the social interchange
of a market that is different to a normal shop?
Ann Coffey: Yes, I think there
is. It may be something that is attached to the past, because
it has been there and you are very conscious that you have experienced
a thousand years of history. Stockport market was the last market
where somebody managed to sell their wife. It is certainly a link
with the past. It is just knowing that this market has been there
a very long time. Of course, that would never happen these days!
Q10 Anne Main: Leaving aside wife
selling, you did mention traders from different ethnic backgrounds
and so on. Does a market maybe, particularly in a high shop rental
area, offer a very welcome opportunity for a group who could not
afford a high rental every day of the week to be able to offer
their goods, their diversity of service? Would you say that is
the benefit of a market, that you only pay for two pitches a week
or whatever it is?
Ann Coffey: Yes. I am very conscious
you are asking me a series of specific questions. We recently
did a markets policy framework document which sought to address
what markets could do through a range of policies. It might help
if I go through some of them because I think they will answer
some of your questions.
Q11 Anne Main: If I give you the
headlines: economics, environmental, health and regeneration;
if you can work your way through, we would be grateful. Economic.
Ann Coffey: As you said, economic:
46,000 market traders provide something like 96,000 jobs across
the UK. So they are an important contribution to the economy of
the country. They can also provide, as you said, business start-up
opportunities. Some of the very big names like Marks & Spencer
and Morrisons actually started in markets. They can give somebody
who has a very good idea to sell something an initial place to
sell it.
Q12 Anne Main: Do you think that
could happen now?
Ann Coffey: Yes, I think, more
than anything, it could happen now, because people are getting
much more interested in how they do different things in their
lives. For example, I think it would be possible for a woman who
perhaps had responsibilities for young children but perhaps made
jewellery or craft items to sell that on a market two or three
mornings a week and fit that in with her family responsibilities.
It would be possible for somebody to work part-time in a market
and pursue further training perhaps at a training college. In
its flexibility, it actually fits in with people's changing views
of how they work, how they pursue education through their life
and things like that. They also provide, of course, locally produced
fresh seasonal food, which fits into the whole thing about healthy
eating. Food does not tend to be as packaged as in the supermarkets
and does not tend to be taken from such long distances.
Q13 Anne Main: So you are saying
it is a sort of greener footprint to a market stall than, say,
to a shop?
Ann Coffey: I suppose it depends
on where the produce in the shop comes from and obviously some
shops do encourage local produce.
Q14 Anne Main: I was thinking of
the packaging, lighting, substantial shop fronts, heating.
Ann Coffey: I think so because,
obviously, there does not tend to be that sort of thing. That
is true. I think it is very important. People forget that it can
be very important for the promotion of culture and tourism. When
a market stall is not there, the marketplace is there and is maintained.
You can have theatres, shows, entertainment. Again, it is giving
the idea of this public space, which is a flexible public space,
which sometimes is a market and sometimes is a place of entertainment.
We were looking in our market framework document at how we could
take advantage and how we could fit the developing role of markets
into what we see as a very good future for markets with the necessary
support from local and national governments.
Q15 Anne Main: So what are you saying?
That entertainment space, perhaps alternative cultural space,
that they are offering a community cohesion or enrichment or cultural
opportunity that a range of shops just could not do?
Ann Coffey: You can move stalls.
You can put stalls up and move them around.
Q16 Anne Main: You can change the
feel of it?
Ann Coffey: You can change the
feel, and they can move and change with the time, as indeed markets
have over a thousand years. The stalls of a thousand years ago
have gone and they have been replaced. When the stalls are not
there, it is still a public space which can be used in another
way. You are right; that gives the wider community that sense
that it is their space, that it is a community place, it is a
social space, it represents what markets represented for hundreds
of years. It is very important. Once it is gone, that has gone
as well.
Andrew George: Regarding the economic
development issues, do you think that particularly the smaller
high-street traders feel that there is unfair competition with
regard to the markets, particularly given that they do not face
the same bills as far as rent and rates—I am sure you must
have heard these arguments before—the perception that the
markets themselves do not perhaps have as much—
Chair: We had this question just before
you came in.
Andrew George: On the regulatory burden?
Right. In that case, my apologies.
Q17 Mr Betts: We talked about how
markets can contribute to these important national policy goals.
Do you think there are obstacles in the way of them doing an even
better job in contributing and, if so, what those obstacles are
and how we might try and get rid of them?
Ann Coffey: I think there are
obstacles. If I go through some of the things that I think could
be done to help, the first thing is a lack of investment in local
markets by local authorities. There probably are very good reasons
for that. Local authorities have had higher priorities of investment,
and often they have approached market management in a regulatory
way. They have not seen it as investment for the future. I think
that has been one of the obstacles to it. I think there could
be a great deal more innovation in terms of looking at how you
manage markets, maybe looking at much more private-public partnerships
which could bring in money. There has been evidence that local
authorities are going down that line and bringing that kind of
investment. I think there is an issue, as I touched on before,
of getting much more innovatory management, that it is not simply
the old markets department managing it. It should be part of what
we are trying to do with our town centre. In fact, the government
Planning Policy Guidance 6, which I am sure you are all very familiar
with, which was issued in 2006 by the Department, made this clear,
that they thought that local authorities should invest more, had
an obligation to look at how they make markets more attractive
and invest in them. I think that investment and the way that they
are managed and how they are seen can be a barrier to it. The
other big barrier that markets have, again, if we go back to central
government, is getting access to central government decision-making.
If we go to our market documents, at least seven government departments
were involved: if you are looking at innovation, if you are looking
at entrepreneurship, you are looking at BERR, you are looking
at Defra. In fact, we have had about five ministers from different
departments come to speak to us. We think one of the ways that
we could support markets locally is to have a Markets Minister
who would have responsibility for ensuring that support was given
to markets across government departments and obviously could be
a focus for government departments to send policy initiatives
to, to check that they included support for markets. Otherwise,
I think the problem is that you are trying to join up these things,
you are trying to move the market into the future without being
clear what your access point in government is, because everybody
has a bit of responsibility for bits of things. We feel that having
a Markets Minister would help overcome some of those barriers.
Q18 Mr Betts: You are talking about
local authorities taking a slightly different approach in terms
of looking at their markets as an investment. Do we know if local
authorities have used their prudential borrowing powers at all
with regard to markets, in terms of looking at long-term investment?
Ann Coffey: I do not know, Clive.
That is a very good point. I would think it goes back to the priorities
thing. I would be interested. I do not think we know actually.
Q19 John Cummings: Perhaps I could
ask one question: is there a case for a stronger national policy
on markets?
Ann Coffey: I think there is a
case for government departments recognising the very central role
that local markets and all their diversity could have in delivering
a wider social agenda.
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