Examination of Witnesses (Questions 50
- 59)
MONDAY 2 MARCH 2009
MR JOE
HARRISON, MR
SIMON QUIN
AND MR
GARETH JONES
Q50 Chair: We have been having a
conversation about the Post Office, which I will share with everyone
so it is on the record. It is apparently in a covered market.
I was just asking how you could do it on a market stall without
anybody making off with all the money. I was having a bit of difficulty
with that. So it is in a covered market, which obviously makes
a difference. Moving back to the next bit of the evidence, I think
you three gentlemen have been sitting here listening to the other
witnesses. If you can not repeat stuff that we have already had
but add to it and amplify it, that would be very helpful, and
do not all three feel you need to speak on every topic unless
you have something additional to say, if I can put it that way.
Can I start with a straight question on whether markets are thriving
or in decline and whether it depends on what sort of market it
is or where it is?
Mr Harrison: Certainly. I would
like to answer that question. There are so many different demographics
of markets and such variety of different types of markets that
it is too difficult and too general a question to ask whether
they are in decline or not. As has already been mentioned, and
I would not like to repeat it, there are different aspects of
why markets are successful, basically, because of the need within
the community of that market, and there are prime examples throughout
the country where markets are still successful and still thriving.
I would like to also answer a question that was asked before on
whether the Government should have a market stall. My organisation
has been asked twice now by government departments to use markets
and market traders to get across messages. One was in the education
and skills, the adult numeracy and literacy skills, where the
messages were put across via the market traders to the public.
A more recent one, which is to be launched in Dartford on 12 March,
is the Pension Credit, where it is more than obvious that the
message that the Government wants to get to an age group of the
community, that direct mailing and flyers through the post do
not work and where there is a great deal more trust in their local
market trader, where they can come along and the message can be
put across.
Q51 Anne Main: How does it work?
Mr Harrison: Basically, we have
encouraged a certain amount of markets to take part in the campaign,
and the fact that the market stalls will be made available to
the local departments to get the message across and the fact that
we badge up between the NMTF and the government department the
fact that market traders and the fact that there are so many unclaimed
credits, so therefore we can get the message across. It was very
successful in the Get On campaign and it is sure to be the same
with Pension Credits.
Q52 Chair: That is a very useful
example. When you said it was going to be launched in Dartford,
it is happening in lots of other places as well, is it?
Mr Harrison: It is supposed to
but obviously the project is going to be trialled in certain areas.
Sheffield is the next area it will be trialled in. It just highlights
the role markets play in the community and the benefits given
by getting messages across to the community.
Q53 Chair: To return to the original
question, and I understand how it is difficult to generalise,
I will move it on slightly. There is the issue of how they are
going to be affected by the recession and also, if markets are
in decline, should government worry anyway or is it just a response
to market forces, so to speak?
Mr Quin: I guess an overview on
this, very quickly, would be that in a sense markets went out
of fashion for a period of time. This was not necessarily happening
in the market towns, where there was still always a loyalty and
an attraction to them but if you looked across the board—and
there were exceptions—the concept was that the brave new
world of supermarkets and the brave new world of more immediate
shopping took over from markets. Markets that have been the backbone
of our town and city centres and indeed the very reason that many
centres exist for hundreds, if not a thousand years in some cases,
in almost one generation were lost or neglected. I think what
we have seen, just as we all threw out our antiques in the 1960s
but are now collecting them again, markets are beginning to come
back into fashion in certain ways in certain cases. People have
rediscovered the distinctive nature of what markets offer, the
uniqueness of what they have. I think the recession is actually
going to be beneficial for markets in many ways. We were talking
about this earlier. As we saw in previous downturns, markets are
seen as places where people can buy goods at more affordable prices,
so when they are concerned about how much money they are spending
I think we will see a return to markets for many shoppers and
I think we will see many businesses starting up on markets as
people who have perhaps been in employment seek the opportunity
to start a business fairly affordably. I am not as despairing
about the future of markets perhaps as I might have been 10 years
ago. I think there is optimism around now but I think there are
still a lot of lessons to be learned, as we will discover during
the course of your inquiry.
Mr Jones: I am really talking
about farmers' markets. The evidence from the States is that they,
like all retail businesses, go up and down with the economy. In
the United States, where they are about 30 years ahead of us,
they have seen this over time. What we have coming back to us
at the moment is that footfall in farmers' markets is being maintained
but people are being rather more cautious about what they spend
their money on. For example, at a meat stall they might be spending
more on minced beef and less on fillet steak. There is more coinage
being taken and less notes. So they are an instrument of the economy.
Q54 Chair: Can I just raise a query
that came to me in earlier evidence when people were talking about
one of the benefits being that people had access to fresh food,
particularly fruit and vegetables. This is not really related
to farmers' markets but ordinary general markets. It is my impression
that actually, the greengrocers' stalls bring bulk fruit and veg
that they had bought at Covent Garden and which are probably near
expiry date and therefore are slightly cheaper because the supermarkets
or indeed greengrocer shops probably would not buy them. Therefore,
that could be bringing fresh fruit at affordable prices but it
is not doing what I think our first witness was talking about,
which was selling people local produce and therefore reducing
air miles. Is that a correct supposition?
Mr Harrison: To be fair, I think
that is a misconception. Quite frankly, if you were to visit the
fruit and vegetable department in the supermarket and the choice
that is available to the public, the variations of different potatoes,
tomatoes, whatever, is far less in general supermarkets than what
is available in the local markets. Therefore there is a far bigger
variety on offer generally in local markets. It is a misconception
that there will be late dates, whatever. I am not saying that
there are not certain products available for those that wish to
buy them at cheaper rates in most local markets but there is some
better quality offered by the stalls in all our markets. The situation
is the same right across the continent. La Boqueria in Barcelona
is probably rated as one of the best markets in Europe. If you
visit La Boqueria, the first stalls that you are greeted with
are the better products or the more high-quality products and
the further you go into the market, the cheaper the products are
and the later date the product becomes, but every shopper has
a price and as long as the variety is available, that is what
is more important. What is not available in the supermarkets is
the variety of choice.
Q55 Anne Main: Can I just ask you
about the comment you made that markets are sometimes seen as
cash cows. I was wondering what you thought about the levels of
rentals for market spaces, whether or not you think in today's
economic climate—in St Albans, for example, I have been
quoted £100 per stall, which sounds quite a lot.
Mr Quin: Shall I start on this
cash cow business and I am sure those who are more involved in
market trading may have a view on the price that is paid for rental.
I think it is the case, I think there is an analogy here with
the way that local authorities looked at car parks for a long
time, that they were assets, they took the income out, and did
not reinvest in them. If you looked across the country in many
town centres, car parks were built in the 1960s and very little
happened to them after that. They deteriorated and became places
that people did not want to use compared to those at out-of-town
shopping centres or those in privately developed shopping centres.
I think markets were seen in the same way, that they were an asset
the local authority had, they took the money out and did very
little on the whole to reinvest in them. There were exceptions,
and a number of local authorities, as we have already heard, have
woken up to the fact that actually you have to reinvest in them
in order to keep them special and make them distinctive. You cannot
just keep taking money out of them. On the stall rental, there
are others here better qualified than I am to comment.
Mr Harrison: The fact of the matter
is that the going rate for rents is quite reasonable as far as
markets are concerned. The discontent for the traders lies in
the lack of reinvestment where their rentals have been paid and
there is no reinvestment into the scenario. Also, it is disproportionate,
in as much as some of the rentals are for secondary positions
within the town centre. As was previously mentioned, the actual
commercial part of the town centre has moved away from the historic
part of the town centre, where generally the markets are placed,
therefore it is disproportionate in the rents being paid in what
would be a secondary position within the town.
Mr Jones: If I may, on farmers'
markets, in truth, the producer groups or the market organiser
has to create a fine balance between how much they charge and
how much it is worth to attend the market as a trader. At the
low end, we have seen £10 per stall per day. That really
does not give very much reinvestment back into marketing and creating
a more successful market. The highest rentals we see at farmers'
markets are of the order of £70, rising to £90 in maybe
the peak season. More typically they are on about £25-£30
and I would say that is the bulk of the rentals we are seeing.
It goes back to how good a performance that market will then deliver
for the trader.
Q56 Chair: I think you are all members
of the Retail Markets Alliance and one of their recommendations
seems to suggest that central Government should be collecting
information on markets, how big they are, how they are doing,
and collating it. Why do you think that Government should be interested
in collecting that information and why can the Retail Markets
Alliance not do it?
Mr Quin: I guess the reason that
we think Government should be involved in this is the wider role
of markets. We have already heard a number of issues on that this
afternoon in terms of community cohesion, the opportunities it
offers for new business start-up, the sense of place it creates,
serving the wider community and encouraging community inclusion
as well. What we feel at the moment is that markets have been
disregarded by local authorities and others, indeed not part of
policy, because no-one has really understood the role that markets
have, the contribution that they make in a number of different
ways to the success of communities and the way that they serve
them. Whilst we would love to do it ourselves, it really is a
case of funding because there is a lot of information out that
there needs to be brought together. We felt that in the first
instance this really was something where some research supported
by Government, which would then come down in the form of recommendations
to local authorities and others in terms of how markets should
be valued and cared for in the future, would be a useful starting
point.
Q57 John Cummings: Is there anything
you would want to add to what the other witnesses have said about
the contribution of markets to society and the economy? Do you
have a position on car boot sales?
Mr Harrison: My organisation does
have a position on car boot sales. We feel that there is not a
necessity for car boot sales, but providing they are licensed
and governed in the same format and regulation form as that of
markets. Initially they were introduced to raise funds for charities
in the main, and such like, and we would like to see that upheld
and, therefore, not be markets in another name and fall under
the same regulatory situation as markets do.
Q58 John Cummings: Are you all of
the same opinion?
Mr Quin: Yes, I think so.
Mr Jones: Yes. On society, one
of the factors farmers' markets have been very valuable in doing
is bringing together the farmers and small-scale producers into
a marketplace where they can share common values. Being a farmer
can be quite a lonely job and being able to come into the town
and sell in a legitimate way has been a tremendous opportunity
for many. The social cohesion of the rural part of many towns
and market towns coming into cities has also been enabled through
farmers' markets and is innovative territory.
Mr Quin: I would add another angle
on this, and it was a question that was being asked earlier, whether
markets were in competition with retailers. My view on this would
be that they are not; they are part of the diversified retail
offer that a town or city centre has to have because it provides
alternatives. Now, you may say that certain types of goods are
competing with others, but that is the nature of retail, that
happens across the board. What markets offer is something distinctive,
perhaps not there every day, perhaps moving around and giving
variety. It is an important contribution that markets make to
put people on the first step of the retail market if they wish,
to offer, as we see in some instances now, additional outlets
for retailers that are already in the town centre who perhaps
may take a market stall, particularly around Christmas or perhaps
as a first step towards expansion, and also to challenge existing
retailers by bringing in something innovative, something new,
perhaps trialling it for a while which may make an existing retailer
have a look and say, "I think that is something we should
be interested in seeing". I do not see this competition element
at all really. I am sure some retailers will complain about it,
but if you stop and look at it this is about offering up a wider
offer that a town or city centre uniquely has.
Q59 Anne Main: Before we move on
to specialist markets, although I am sure specialist markets will
come into it, do you believe under current Planning Policy Guidance
6 that there is enough recognition of the role of markets?
Mr Quin: My view is no. The reason
I say that is I think the point has been made already that markets
in local authorities particularly are often pigeonholed somewhere
in the system but very rarely picked up by others who are making
decisions. By ensuring that the role of markets is emphasised
in PPS6 it will make planning officers, both on policy and then
on development control, take account of markets. In too many instances
across the country markets have been shunted to some other part
of town in order to facilitate regeneration and they have been
seen as something that can be treated in a very poor way by the
planning system. We do need to see emphasised in planning policy
statements—and, indeed, in other statements by Government—the
important role of markets.
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