Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100
- 110)
TUESDAY 24 MARCH 2009
MR GRAHAM
WILSON
Q100 Sir Paul Beresford: So why do
we not?
Mr Wilson: Certainly in terms
of standards there is no reason why we cannot compete.
Q101 Chair: Do you have a figure
for the percentage of total retail trade in Britain which is in
markets?
Mr Wilson: No, I am afraid we
only have the sort of figures that were contained in the initial
2005 survey. We have done some more work. I mentioned the work
that we were currently undertaking on the policy framework. The
NMTF have sought to update the spend that we identified in the
2005 report, and the indication is that that figure of £1.1
billion was an understatement. The research that the NMTF have
currently undertaken and are shortly to complete suggests that
the figure, looking at markets as a whole, is probably nearer
£3 billion.
Q102 Anne Main: You touched on the
fact that sometimes markets are seen as a cash cow. What more
could local authorities be doing to support markets in their areas,
since they have, in the past, been benefiting?
Mr Wilson: I think part of it
is investment, and I can deal with that separately. It really
is asking the local authority to invest in its markets in terms
of the quality of the management of its markets. Whereas some
markets have excellent management (I commented earlier about how
sometimes markets are treated as being capable of being run by
anyone), I think there needs to be an investment in terms of professionalism
in the market. There needs to be identification of a markets'
champion who can speak on behalf of the markets, and, very importantly,
there needs to be an understanding and acceptance by the local
authority (which I think we are now beginning to see more of)
that, yes, they are a trading operation, and they start from the
premise that they must be operated on that basis, but they can
bring significant other benefits. I think it is very much a process
of getting the local authority to understand that the markets
are a valuable local authority asset, and investing in them in
different ways.
Q103 Anne Main: Can I ask you to
expand on that a little more? Public finances are very tight,
and you do say that this should be possibly more of a priority
for local authorities, and you also said about the lack of expertise.
Can I ask you to flesh out those two things? One: do you think
there is something to be said for making a greater argument for
the broader social role of markets and where would that fit in
a council's overall view or strategy for its area, and, two, if
the local authority does not have the expertise or does not seem
to know which bit to put it in—whether it is Parks and Gardens
or Parking, or whether it is development of the city centre—should
there be a greater use potentially of the private sector's expertise
or joint partnerships in looking after the running of markets?
Mr Wilson: On the first point,
there is clearly a role for the social benefits of markets. In
terms of how the market operates, in terms of creating space for
people to actually meet together and enjoy time together, in terms
of the market potentially fulfilling a wider role in providing
information and providing services, I think you already know that,
for example, one of our markets has a post office. There are others
which provide facilities for charities and other organisations
to promote information about services. Markets have been identified
as a place where, certainly, the older generation like to come
and feel safe. I think there is a very important social role for
markets. In terms of how markets are organised, one of the things
we would certainly ask you to consider is to encourage local authorities
to look at more innovative ways of actually providing markets.
Among our membership at the moment we have a number of private
market operators; although we are, basically, a local authority
organisation, two years ago we did bring within our membership
a number of private markets, and we would certainly encourage
our members to look at the benefits of a public/private partnership.
We know, for example, that that already happens—Luton is
one place where a public/private partnership has been implemented,
and Liverpool is another place where they are looking at a new
market against the background of a public/private partnership.
However, we would also suggest that beyond that local authorities
should look at possible other vehicles for their markets. Markets
often, when capital is being allocated in the authority, or the
funding is being looked at, are marginalised. We would say that
there are models, such as setting up a local authority company
to actually provide the market as a stand-alone trading organisation—
Q104 Anne Main: Can I pick you up
on that? Not all markets are the same. I live in St Albans and
that has a very busy street market and we have seen a lovely great
big open space that would be a community space. Could you expand
on how you would come up with some sort of model that could be
dipped into by the various different types or sizes or layouts
of market?
Mr Wilson: Yes, what we provide,
as part of our membership service, is, first of all, a "critical
friend" approach, or we provide consultancy services to our
members. Indeed, there is a range of excellent private consultants
who operate in the same way. What we say is there are a range
of options that are available to local authorities in terms of
how they operate their markets. They may feel it appropriate to
continue as they do at the moment, as part of a local authority
portfolio, and that is fine if that works—you have heard
this morning about how it works in Nuneaton and you have seen
how it works in Leicester. However, we also think that there are
other possibilities that market authorities need to address. One
is a stand-alone company, another is a possible trust arrangement
and another is a public/private partnership. What suits one necessarily
does not suit another, but what we would certainly commend to
all local authorities is that in this current climate it is important
that they take stock of their market operation and actually assess
what model fits them most effectively. Clearly, in St Albans there
are certain characteristics and there are certain qualities to
the organisation. It may be that one model would fit and another
would not. What we say is that in order to deliver the most effective
market, please, as part of the evaluation or assessment of your
market provision, give serious consideration to what model most
conveniently fits your situation.
Q105 Chair: We are coming to the
end of this session. Can I just very quickly ask you about central
government, and then Emily has some questions about market traders?
I know you have been suggesting that there should be a government
minister with special responsibility for markets. Do you think
that is a reasonable expectation, and which department should
they be in?
Mr Wilson: I would like to think,
given the overall contribution that markets make, that it is a
reasonable proposition. I think if we were to have a government
minister, which I think would be a likely co-ordinating role,
it would sit in Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform or
Communities and Local Government. There is currently a Small Business
Minister; whether there would be merit in linking that responsibility
within the remit of small business (it probably would need some
sort of review of the portfolio), I hope it would be realistic
to, at least, flag up a responsibility in an existing government
portfolio or that, as part of any sort of restructuring of Cabinet
or ministerial responsibilities, there would be some recognition
of the role of markets. We desperately need a co-ordinating role.
Q106 Sir Paul Beresford: If you got
a co-ordinating role at a government level, do you not run the
risk of the minister—he or she—feeling they have got
to do something and then having regulation, law and interference,
whereas you are probably better off leaving it at the local government
level?
Mr Wilson: I do not think it is
a question that we are looking for interference; we are just looking—
Q107 Sir Paul Beresford: You will
get it!
Mr Wilson:—for support;
we are looking for somebody who will be, effectively, in government,
we hope, a markets' champion.
Q108 Emily Thornberry: We heard your
evidence about an 8 per cent increase in the market at Hinckley
and your evidence about the increase in specialist markets, but
overall, as we understand it, there is a problem for the market
sector in that there are not new people coming into the traditional
sector. What is the main reason for that, would you say?
Mr Wilson: There are a variety
of reasons but the main one is, I think, that the industry, in
some respects, has been far too insular in the past. There has
been a failure in respect of some of the national organisations
to actually work on a co-ordinated basis and promote new schemes
and new opportunities to bring in market traders. Farmers' markets,
for example, have brought in a significant number of new traders,
but I think the industry has to work together more on a national
basis. We are beginning to see this happen through the Retail
Markets Alliance but we have also, together, in the last few months,
promoted a national scheme called "Make your Mark" where
we are looking to bring in new traders. The industry needs to
work harder in its own respect, and I think we are beginning to
see this. We have also got to tap into various initiatives that
currently exist through apprenticeship and through regional development
agencies that help with job creation schemes. This is, again,
where I would hope that if we had a minister championing markets
that minister would flag up the importance of markets in terms
of embracing some of the new start schemes that come out from
various agencies. We need to get our act together but we certainly
need some support in terms of identifying the value of markets
in new start opportunities.
Q109 Emily Thornberry: How long has
"Make your Mark" been going?
Mr Wilson: It is a new scheme
that started just before Christmas and which will come to a conclusion
in the summer. The organisation did a scheme last year of finding
new traders to work in shopping malls. They have now transferred
their attention to markets and, currently, we are beginning the
stage of judging the entries to the competition. That will be
finalised by the summer.
Q110 Emily Thornberry: You talked
about apprenticeships and the need, possibly, for something like
apprenticeships, and that is really going to take me on to my
next question. What training is available and how successful is
that?
Mr Wilson: The training that exists
at the moment is largely fragmentary. There are some of our members—Warrington
is one, for example—which have a scheme they have undertaken
via the Regional Development Agency, where they provide grants,
where they provide mentoring, where they provide business support
and where they provide a range of other initiatives to help traders.
A number of our members have schemes where they allow a new market
trader to work alongside an existing one, and that sort of apprenticeship
enables a person to learn the main elements of being a market
trader without putting money or career at risk. We have a number
of mentoring projects and a number of business support projects.
Certainly, as an industry, we need to bring those together on
a national scale. That is where we need help in terms of making
meaningful engagement with Regional Development Agencies, and
with others who hold the purse strings of job opportunities and
new start opportunities.
Chair: Thank you very much indeed, Mr
Wilson.
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