Examination of Witnesses (Questions 320-338)
ANN KEEN
MP AND MR
VERNON COAKER
MP
17 NOVEMBER 2008
Q320 Sir Paul Beresford: To come
back to the point about the London Mayor, democratically elected,
he chairs the Police Authority. The Metropolitan Police are the
biggest in the country. They are the most important. They have
national strategies as well. Why could that not be necessarily
applied to some of the other police authorities?
Mr Coaker: If you are asking me
about an elected Mayor and one person being responsible for the
police force, I do not agree with that. One of the suggestions
in the Green Paper which will obviously be a matter for discussion
and debate as we go forward is that one of the crime and policing
representatives should chair the Police Authority. Those CPRs
(Crime and Policing Representatives) should be in the majority
on the Police Authority. We think the Police Authority model is
one that is good and can be built on and demonstrates effective
oversight of what the police do. There is good cooperation between
chief constables and police authorities where it works well. The
issue that we are trying to deal with is the fact that the public
feel disconnected from the Police Authority.
Q321 Sir Paul Beresford: Not in London.
Mr Coaker: CPRs do not apply to
London. If we look across the country, that is the issue that
we are trying to deal with and why we have come forward with the
suggestions that we have.
Q322 Mr Betts: I do not think I have
ever known a time when there is more agreement at local level
between elected representatives, think tanks who deal in local
issues, right across the political spectrum, about the need for
more devolution of power, responsibility, accountability of elected
local councillors. I think there is a feeling amongst councils
and the LGA that there is a resonance coming into local government
in terms of how they see the world, a feeling that virtually every
other government department—there are two of them here today—will
pay lip service to this process. They will talk a bit about scrutiny.
They will talk a bit about partnership but ultimately they are
absolutely resistant to giving away any fundamental power to allow
a more proper determination of policies and delivery of services
at local level by locally elected representatives.
Mr Coaker: When you look and see
how the withdrawal of numerous targets for local authorities and
say to local authorities and local people with respect to policing,
the targets that are set will not be dictated to by national government
but will be informed and developed through the local area agreement,
even the Assessment of Police and Community Safety which is the
new indicator with respect to policing—many of the indicators
within that are indicators which almost replicate the indicators
in the national indicator set. We have tried very hard to move
back from local people, from local communities and from local
government and to try to say to them, "You set the priorities
for your area. You know your area best and we will back off."
That is what we have done with one proviso: that we maintain the
confidence target.
Q323 Mr Betts: To suggest a way forward
that has been put to us, I think it applies in health even more
because there is some accountability in police authorities but
there is nothing in the Health Service. The minister is the first
point of elected accountability. It is a nonsense. You are going
to have a situation where in the end the Secretary of State is
going to want certain guidelines for how the Health Service is
run. They are going to want a budget which is delegated downwards
in terms of responsibility if you are actually spending on the
ground, but the budget is going to be a health budget to spend
on health matters. Why could we not have a situation where, at
local level, the primary care trust, instead of being a group
of people appointed by an appointments commission—most people
in their area would not know who the members of the primary care
trust were, let alone who the appointments commission were who
do the appointing—why could it not be locally elected councillors,
already elected to a council who can have the responsibility for
doing the commissioning work of the PCT at local level within
the guidelines of the Secretary of State with the budget laid
down by the Secretary of State? Why would that be such a terrible
thing to happen?
Ann Keen: I am not saying it would
or it would not. What I am saying is it would require a massive
reorganisation.
Q324 Mr Betts: No, it would not.
I am talking about leaving the PCT there but, instead of the current
members appointed, you have elected councillors elected as the
PCT with no change of structures or organisations.
Ann Keen: With respect, we already
do sit on and we already do share—
Q325 Mr Betts: Not automatically.
Ann Keen: The overview and scrutiny
committee does do that.
Q326 Mr Betts: No. It does not take
decisions. It comments.
Ann Keen: Joint planning arrangements,
for example, are—
Q327 Mr Betts: I am talking about
the right to have the commissioning done by elected people rather
than appointed people. It is a fairly fundamental thing if we
are really going to change the balance of power in this country,
is it not?
Ann Keen: The consultation that
has been done on this at its most recent, in the last few months,
is saying that people want Parliament to be accountable for the
health spending of their local area. Every local health authority
community is encouraged as much as possible to involve local people
in that decision making for that transparency to be there, for
there to be those key objectives as to what is important to that
local health community and for that to be agreed and to have as
much joint working as is possible and required. The examples of
Hull and Walsall, where they have gone wider than that, are already
very good examples but at this moment in time that is the status
of how Parliament is going to be accountable.
Q328 Mr Betts: Is it felt that locally
elected councillors could not be trusted to do this?
Ann Keen: They are encouraged
to work with us.
Q329 Mr Betts: Is it felt they could
not be trusted to do the commissioning?
Ann Keen: At this time our World
Class Commissioning has only just started.
Q330 Mr Betts: Is it felt that locally
elected councillors could not be trusted to do the day to day
commissioning?
Ann Keen: I do not think anybody
is saying that. What we are saying is everybody that has been
consulted at this particular time on this issue would want it
to stay as it is.
Q331 Mr Betts: I do not think that
is true. What evidence is there for that?
Ann Keen: The evidence I have
is from the consultation. If you want me to send some of that
to you, I would be very happy to do that.
Q332 Chair: That would be helpful
because we could see what questions were asked. If something went
wrong in a local PCT or a local crime and disorder partnership
wholly as a result of a local decision, would you feel obliged
as ministers to get involved or would you say, "That was
a local decision. You must hold them to account"?
Mr Coaker: That is a very good
question. Local accountability has to mean local accountability.
Therefore, if people have taken decisions which are purely down
to the decision that they have taken locally, then they have to
be accountable for it. If you are talking about individual chief
constables, individual police officers or indeed individual councillors
or others, in many respects, I think they are. The blur comes
when sometimes people feel they have taken a decision because
they are constrained by something nationally. There is a straitjacket
on them and they have taken that decision and it has not been
a truly local decision; it has been a decision that they have
been, in a sense, pushed into. One thing I do think is important—this
is why I think it is an important question—is, if we are
talking about local accountability, then we really have to mean
it. People at a local level have to mean it as well. Therefore,
if they want responsibility to take decisions and we are trying
to back off, as we are, with respect to many of the issues of
CDRP and so on, they also have to accept that when things go wrong
they allow themselves to be blamed in that sense, allow themselves
to accept responsibility and do not just say, "We would have
done it if only national government had not got in the way."
There is a time when national government gets in the way but with
accountability comes responsibility. I think that is the message
for local government and local people as well. I think the majority
accept that and would be only too ready to accept the responsibility
that comes with that accountability, but it has to be recognised
that they have to accept that.
Q333 Chair: Would you give a similar
answer, Mrs Keen?
Ann Keen: I would. I would also
agree with Vernon on what he said. We all have a duty of care.
Therefore, it would be a strategic health authority which would
also be monitoring very closely the performance of their PCTs
along with the whole of the local health community. We have to
work as a team as well as individually and the local devolvement
of what has happened to the Health Service in the last few years,
where it has been more and more devolved, still does require us
to have an overview of safety because it is absolutely essential
that people who enter into the Health Service in whatever way
they do are safe. Therefore, our accountability to the patient
within the community at minister level is always there but, at
the same time, that local decision making as to why it was made,
who made it and what were the consequences of that, people have
to take that responsibility locally as well.
Q334 Mr Betts: How is that responsibility
put into practice? Somebody holds their hands up as a PCT and
says, "We have got it wrong." What happens? There is
no electorate out there to get rid of them, is there?
Ann Keen: There is an employment
practice. I could give you many examples of where people have
got it wrong.
Q335 Mr Betts: PCT members get it
wrong. How are they held accountable?
Ann Keen: The PCT is accountable
to the chief executive, to the chair, to the strategic health
authority and to the appointments commission which we are looking
at.
Q336 Mr Betts: The strategic health
authority are also appointed, are they not?
Ann Keen: Not all of them, no.
Q337 Mr Betts: The strategic health
authority are appointed by the same appointments commission that
appoints the PCTs.
Ann Keen: Some members of it are
appointed, yes, but there would be employment practice people
would have to adhere to as to how they would be accountable to
the chief executive of the NHS. This is a national service that
has been devolved locally and it is fairly obvious, Mr Betts,
that you want it to be more devolved. There is discussion to be
had but at this moment in time the accountability for the money
that is spent still lies with the Secretary of State and that
is the position we are in at this time.
Q338 Anne Main: There is a degree
of anonymity with PCT members that councillors do not enjoy. They
do put their work as public service and people know who they are
in various guises and know what they are about. Many of the PCT
members, even if they do a good or a bad job, seem to be able
to be relatively remote from public gaze. I think that is a big
concern.
Ann Keen: If they are practising
as they should be and certainly in line with the future constitution,
that would not be as you said. There will be various levels of
communication skills that people have.
Anne Main: I would challenge my
constituents to name a single person on the PCT. They would probably
be able to name a handful of councillors—certainly not the
whole bunch, but they would be able to pick a few of the ones
that they see regularly doing things. It has to be taken on board
that that is a major concern. These people operate in a world
that is not linked in to the public.
Chair: Thank you very much indeed.
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