Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340-359)
MR KEN
JONES AND
MS JO
WEBBER
17 NOVEMBER 2008
Q340 Chair: Were you both there for the
very first one?
Ms Webber: No.
Q341 Chair: Thank you for being here.
Can I ask a bit about the way partnership works or does not work
at present? To each of you, do you think that local area agreements
provide an effective way of identifying and monitoring local policing
or health priorities?
Ms Webber: I think local area
agreements are obviously quite a recent thing across the piece,
so although they have been developed over time the complete impact
of them is still quite early days. However, I think it does enable
local strategic partnerships to really get to grips with what
the key joint issues are, based obviously on the joint strategic
needs assessment that should cover both local authority services
and health services locally and other services like crime and
disorder reduction. In principle, yes, it is absolutely the right
way to go in terms of bringing together targets where everybody
has a role to play in delivering good outcomes for the local community.
It is still quite early days to see how effective it is in practice.
Mr Jones: The accountability is
not equally shared and does appear to be unbalanced at times.
People at the table have varying degrees of accountability according
to the agency they represent, so that needs to be evened up. It
is a point that ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) makes
quite regularly.
Q342 Dr Pugh: Plato was against democracy
because he said that decisions were made by non-experts and that
was never a good thing. Local authorities are non-experts in community
safety and health. They are not experts in the way that you two
clearly are. Do they have sufficient expertise to make an effective
contribution to community safety and health?
Ms Webber: Absolutely, from a
health point of view. It is very easy to confuse health with health
care and they are two sides of a similar coin. Whilst there are
some health care decisions that need that specialist knowledge,
particularly if you are thinking about tertiary services, highly
specialist services or some of the acute services, there is a
huge range of health services that need a wider response, particularly
when you are talking about people with long term conditions who
may be in and out of hospital, where you have to develop care
packages that really meet their needs and enable them to be as
independent as possible. Yes, very definitely local authorities
have a role to play.
Q343 Dr Pugh: When you look at your
local councillors, you think these are the sorts of chaps or lassies
who can make decisions about health and be well informed and so
on?
Ms Webber: I think they have a
contribution to make, very clearly. Social care, housing services
and a lot of other services provided through local authorities
have a role in ensuring that the right services are there to keep
people as independent as possible.
Q344 Dr Pugh: I have had meetings
with the NHS Confederation from time to time and I know they feel
they know what they are doing when they are running the hospitals
and so on that they run. I was intrigued by earlier discussions
where people talked about local and national priorities. There
is another set of priorities, are there not? There are the professional
priorities. The police must be aware of it. There may be things
the Government wanted to do. There may be things the local community
thinks need to be done. There are also obviously going to be things
that you think as a professional you ought to be doing. How do
you square that with all these other demands?
Mr Jones: Returning to the first
point you made, I agree absolutely that local, democratically
elected people are in the best place to make certain decisions,
strategic decisions, and it is our responsibility as professionals
to make sure they get the right advice and that they are aware
of what the choices and the consequences are. I think that is
when the professional advice comes into play because if you do
X the consequences of A, B and C are this. Provided people are
given that advice—because after all they have the ultimate
accountability at the ballot box.
Q345 Dr Pugh: That is exactly the
system that prevails on a local authority. People in local authorities
are not experts on social services by nature or roads or things
like that. They have officers who say, "There are your choices
and if you do this the following will result. We advise this,
that and the other." You are perfectly happy with that model
for the police, are you?
Mr Jones: Yes, I am, provided
that we are allowed to give our advice in an unbiased and unaffected
way, because obviously the palatability or otherwise of various
directions needs to be open and transparent so that when decisions
are taken people understand why they are taken, who took them
and who is accountable.
Q346 Dr Pugh: All this supplementing
of police authorities with independent members, magistrates and
so on was unnecessary?
Mr Jones: ACPO's view on that
is that police authorities are the least worst of the options
currently available to us. We are interested to see—
Q347 Chair: Think out of the box.
If you could have them the way you wanted them, what would you
think is the best way?
Mr Jones: I have a personal view
which I can give you.
Q348 Dr Pugh: Please give it.
Mr Jones: My personal view is
there needs to be more democratic traction of police authorities
somehow. I am not sure what the answer is.
Q349 Sir Paul Beresford: What about
the London model?
Mr Jones: The balance is beginning
to be seen there where the elected Mayor has some checks and balances
offered by the Metropolitan Police Authority. We will have to
see how that settles down but putting the influence in one individual
is very risky.
Q350 Sir Paul Beresford: The Mayor
chairs the authority.
Mr Jones: Yes, but he is subject
then to be influenced by the authority. He or she does not sit
in sole judgment over policing or health issues. He or she has
to take advice.
Q351 Sir Paul Beresford: He has the
Home Secretary lurking over his shoulder, if not sitting on it.
Mr Jones: There is a balance of
power and influence there.
Q352 Sir Paul Beresford: That is
diplomatically put. For the rest of the country of course it is
likely as a way forward.
Mr Jones: Police authorities were
designed for a different purpose and they have delivered on that,
by and large. I think there now is a legitimate demand for more
accountability in a democratic sense.
Q353 Sir Paul Beresford: Where should
we go?
Mr Jones: I have a personal view
which is that we need somehow to have more democratic traction.
Q354 Sir Paul Beresford: We elect
a sheriff who chairs it?
Mr Jones: We have given that feedback
to the Conservative Party. It is hugely risky and there needs
to be some thinking through about how such an individual could
be subject to proper constitutional checks and balances.
Q355 Chair: As I understand it, ACPO's
view is that they are against the directly elected—
Mr Jones: Yes.
Q356 Chair: But they are not for
a particular model?
Mr Jones: No. I think police authorities
have delivered, by and large. We are aware of what the challenges
are in terms of accountability. We are looking at models for having
local people much more involved in setting local priorities as
a means of addressing that issue because it is a real issue. As
the balance of taxation has shifted in recent decades from central
to local, it becomes much stronger. As a chief constable, the
annual rows with other people about the precept got pretty testy.
You could see, particularly in areas like Surrey where they pay
locally well over 50 per cent of what their force costs, there
is a feeling that they cannot get at the people. I think it was,
"No taxation without representation" that somebody said
once. Many authorities raise much lower than 50 per cent so they
are not there, but I think that is where we are going.
Q357 Anne Main: I would like to ask
you the reverse question that I asked the Minister about the crime
and policing representatives. He did not answer it, I might add.
How would you imagine that the public would choose one of these
individuals? What on earth are they picking from? What qualities
would they be expected to look for?
Mr Jones: We have indicated that
what we need to think through, if we are going to go forward with
this reform, is how to manage that. You could have individuals
elected on a very narrow, local issue. You could have individuals
whipped in a party sense. We advise that is not a good idea but
the Green Paper does allow that people can be double hatted. People
will see (a) there is no real difference because the council officers
are also the CPRs and (b) party machines, quite legitimately,
are going to get behind individuals on particular issues. I think
balancing that is going to be difficult but there are models abroad—the
States is one—where there is a much higher degree of locally
elected component.
Q358 Anne Main: Why are you against
it then?
Mr Jones: We are against it because
we think they could be captured by pretty narrow interests. It
could disturb the current improvement.
Q359 Anne Main: At least if it is
a councillor you know what you are getting?
Mr Jones: Yes.
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