Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100
- 103)
MONDAY 15 JUNE 2009
MR PAUL
CORRY, MR
DAVID CONGDON,
MS KATE
JOPLING AND
MS JANE
KEEPER
Q100 Mr Betts: Just one final point.
We have had different views submitted about the Outcomes Framework.
I think it is important that we measure the results of that as
well as how much it costs. Some people seem to think that it is
actually quite a useful tool to measure the benefit for service
users and what is achieved by the resources which are spent. Others
doubt that. Can we have the different views, do you think?
Ms Keeper: We find there is value
in the Supporting People Outcomes Framework, although at Refuge
we have also created a specialist outcomes framework for evaluating
domestic violence services, so we also have our own internal sorting
systems which produce a wealth of data on specialist outcomes
in our various domestic violence services, so we supplement what
we are monitoring because it does not really otherwise capture
the complexity of the work we are doing.
Q101 Mr Betts: So it is a useful
tool but in your particular case you need to build on it?
Ms Keeper: Yes.
Q102 Mr Betts: Has anybody got any
contra views?
Ms Jopling: We have said we would
like to look at measuring a broader range of outcomes. I think
one of the things we are conscious of which you might be able
to get better at in the instructions as they are coming through
would be looking at the issues in the round and the broad range
of interventions that the young person is not in fact getting
from a service which builds a relationship with them. But if that
is going to be the case, it needs to be proved and we need to
be measuring all the outcomes in terms of perhaps that young person's
social well-being, all the different other aspects of their lives
which may be improved by an intervention which did not specifically
target those issues but which may support them, their learning,
their health—the four issues in the round. So we would like
to build on that so that it is measured, captured and valued by
the local authority.
Mr Corry: I would just add that
I think they are crucially important. We are coming to a point
where public expenditure is going to tighten significantly. We
will be working in a period where everybody is looking for value
for money. Without well-defined outcomes, quality-based outcomes,
service user defined outcomes, you end up in the situation where
value is defined by price and what we want to see is a situation
where value is defined by the relationship between price and the
quality of the outcomes generated by that money, and you cannot
do that unless you have a very nuanced Outcomes Framework. I think
the problem with the Outcomes Framework we have got at the moment
is that very often it measures outputs, throughputs, but they
do not measure what difference this has made to this particular
individual's life. There are tools out there, recovery stars and
all sorts of other things, which are amenable to being used on
sophisticated databases but do build a relationship with the individual
as well, which I think would allow us as providers to show value
for money in the future.
Q103 Mr Betts: That might highlight
the fact that specialist services might be slightly more expensive,
but actually might be more beneficial in terms of what they achieve?
Mr Corry: Absolutely, yes.
Mr Congdon: One of the difficulties
we have is that many of our users who are getting Supporting People
funding are also getting social care funding and sometimes the
social care support is a much bigger part than the Supporting
People part, so you have got different mechanisms for planning
for people with a learning disability accessing social care services
or the Supporting People framework and all these things make it
much more complicated for people running services with different
people providing support for different purposes. That is one of
the reasons why we actually would rather see the whole issue in
the round, regardless of where funding comes from for the individual.
It does not make much difference to the individual where the funding
comes from. What makes a difference to the individuals is the
support they are getting to lead their fulfilling lives with the
degree of independence they need and want.
Chairman: Thank you all very much indeed.
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