UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 308-ivHouse of COMMONSMINUTES OF EVIDENCETAKEN BEFORECOMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE
TRADITIONAL RETAIL MARKETS
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Transcribed by the Official Shorthand Writers to the Houses of Parliament: W B Gurney & Sons LLP, Hope House, Telephone Number: 020 7233 1935
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Oral Evidence
Taken before the Communities and Local Government Committee
on
Members present
Dr Phyllis Starkey, in the Chair
Sir Paul Beresford
John Cummings
Mr Greg Hands
Anne Main
Dr John Pugh
David Wright
________________
Witnesses: Mr George Nicholson, Secretary, National Retail Planning Forum, and Mr Jean-Paul Auguste, Chairman, Geraud Markets Group, gave evidence.
Q262 Chair: Can I welcome both of you here and thank you for managing to make your way through despite the demonstration going on outside. Can I urge you, in responding to questions, firstly not to feel it necessary to repeat something if you agree with what the other person says and secondly, given that we have already taken significant amounts of oral evidence on this topic, we are particularly interested in examples from your own personal experience, rather than necessarily repeating issues that we have already had evidence on from other people and where we may already have significant information. Could I just ask both of you initially what your views are from your experience on whether markets generally are thriving or in decline and whether you believe there are regional differences, differences between different types of markets?
Mr Nicholson: It is quite complex. The markets world is no different to the
retail sector in the sense that you have hypermarkets at one end and the corner
shop at the other. To globalise it to
one thing called "the market sector" and ask the big question is it declining
or thriving is quite difficult to answer, not least because there is not much
data to inform the discussion in any event.
The market I have been involved in, Borough Market, is a thriving, very
successful market and there are other very successful examples of markets in
other parts of the country which you have heard about in Bury,
Mr Auguste: Historically, markets had not many competitors. They were in city centres and life was easy. Now it is a business. It has to be managed as a business, publicly or privately, but it has to be managed as a competitor. When a market is not adapting to that, it has the risk of losing the competition. There are experiences on the continent and here of markets adapting and they are easily successful.
Q263 Chair: Mr Nicholson, Borough Market is a successful market but many people have suggested it is unique. Do you think it is unique or that there are other markets which could learn from that experience?
Mr Nicholson: I do not think it is
unique. The only thing that is unique
about it is that it is a charitable trust, run by a group of trustees. It was set up by statute 250 years ago, so
the particular ownership and management model of it is probably unique. The factors that led to the success of the
Borough Market I believe could be applied in other parts of the country. You have to address the key issues which are
to do with ownership, investment, vision, management and promotion. Those things are not applied in a coherent
way in a lot of other markets for reasons you have heard, whether because there
is not management or there has not been investment or a vision, and then you
will not have a successful market. If
you apply those things in the way that they are applied in some other markets
in the country, I believe both in this country and abroad you will have a
successful market. It is unique in that
it was only started ten years ago and now it is probably one of the most successful
markets in the country, if not in
Q264 John Cummings: Good afternoon. Would you tell the Committee what you believe are the key factors that contribute to a successful market? Do you think there are any pronounced regional differences, in your experience?
Mr Auguste: We should put food back on
the agenda in a better way. We should be
more orientated towards food because people have the need to eat and to buy
each day of the week. If we want our
clients to go to markets for food, we could have a more interesting basis of
clientele. On the continent, mainly in
Latin countries -
Mr Nicholson: It sounds simplistic but to run a successful market you have to want to run a market. It is a very simple observation but it happens to be true. A lot of people who own markets or preside over markets, whether street markets, markets inside shopping centres or wholesale markets, in a sense have inherited these things. Often the structure of the local authority has changed dramatically and the management of those markets has changed. In essence it always comes back to, whether it is publicly owned or privately managed, you have to want to run a market, not just preside over something which happens to be there.
Q265 John
Cummings: Do you have any practical examples for the
Committee in relation to best practice with wider applicability to
Mr Nicholson:
Q266 John Cummings: Do you have any examples of best practice?
Mr Nicholson: I think the Borough Market is an example of good practice. The market, the shops and buildings around it are all collectively owned by the trustees, so there is unity of ownership.
Q267 Chair:
I do
not think that pattern could be easily replicated, from what we have
understood, in most other markets in
Mr Nicholson: In most other markets it is
replicated because the street is owned by the local authority and most of the
shops on both sides of the street are also owned by the local authority. What is lacking is any coherent management in
relation to the market because of the particular circumstances in
Q268 John Cummings: Is that applicable to Southwark as well?
Mr Nicholson: You will have heard in
Mr Auguste: On the continent, mainly in
Q269 John Cummings: Do you have any examples of best practice with the wider applicability arising from your specific involvement with other English markets?
Mr Auguste:
Q270 Chair: Did the initiative come from Liverpool Council or from you?
Mr Auguste: We had contacts with Liverpool City Council but they chose this unique experience of creating a company.
Q271 Dr Pugh: Why does that work particularly well?
Mr Auguste: Because we are obliged to
work together. The staff within the city
administration are obliged with us to understand what is the problem of the
market and manage it like an administration.
It is a business. We have so many
competitors. We are obliged to
understand the flexibility and speed at which things are changing. It is so easy to speak together that we like
this experience in
Q272 John
Cummings: Is there anything that we could learn from
successful markets in
Mr Auguste: Absolutely. Besides the food option I was citing, I have
in mind mainly Bordeaux Capucins Market, where there are two big market halls
refurbished through a very long term duration contract. Through this contract, every partner, the
city council and us, are obliged to eliminate any short term speculation
decision. We are obliged to think at
least 10 or 20 years ahead. When we took
over this market, we were left with 40/45 food traders and the market was
perhaps 40 per cent occupied. It took 13
years and this is the first year the market will be fully occupied and
rented. It is a long term
commitment. The private company has to
accept a big investment and it has to accept transparency to work with the city
council. You cannot get city council
commitment if you are not accepting the transparency. It is a complete change compared to what
could be said about private operators in this country. I would not attack private operators in this
country because it is a sort of catch 22 situation. They were offered short term contracts. You cannot have an answer which makes these
people aware of what is the long term interest for the city council, a long
term vision for the market, if they are stuck on a very short life together
with the city.
Q273 Chair:
Relating to food trade and wholesalers, I
understand that in
Mr Auguste: It is less the case. We should be back to better interaction between wholesale and retail markets in this country. Where could we have good food traders on retail markets if they cannot have access to diversity and quality food? It is mainly through this wholesale market scheme that they could be offered these products.
Mr Nicholson: I agree. To me it would be inconceivable to think that
we could go back to a situation in this country that they have, say, in Germany
where the Hamburg Market for instance as well as the wholesale market is run by
the city council within the confines of the estate which they own. They have a lot of private wholesaling
companies who deal with Aldi and a lot of the business for supermarkets and
discounters goes through the wholesale market in that way. It does not effectively go through the public
bit; it goes through a private company located on the estate of the land which
is owned by the city authority. I cannot
see that Tesco, Sainsbury's or Waitrose are going to go back to buying their
produce through a wholesale market in this country. There is undoubtedly scope for more
interaction between the wholesale and the retail part of the market. That is what the Borough Market does. We are what we call a composite market. We have part of the market which is a
wholesale market, which is the historic bit of the market. Other bits of the market are retail and other
bits are shops, restaurants and cafes.
In a sense, that is a model like
Q274 Chair: Who could promote it?
Mr Nicholson: The wholesale market
could. If you go to
Q275 John
Cummings: Mr Auguste, I see your company has been
established for about 130 years. It is
wide ranging and very extensive throughout
Mr Nicholson: It is called Group Geraud.
Q276 John Cummings: Do we have anything comparable in this country?
Mr Nicholson: There are other companies not so old. Do you mean are there other private market operators?
Q277 John Cummings: Yes, larger.
Mr Nicholson: Not as big as Group Geraud. Town and Country?
Mr Auguste: Perhaps 50 years. I am not sure. To explain the longevity, we come back to the investment and the commitment to long term contracts.
Q278 John Cummings: Did you ever sell fruit and veg in a market?
Mr Auguste: No. I was born on a market, to understand how traders are working. The problem is the transfer of knowledge. You cannot read it; you have to live it.
Q279 Anne Main: Mr Nicholson, you kept saying repeatedly that you really need to want to run a market. In your submission you criticise a trend encouraged by central government for local authorities to view markets as simply part of a wider property portfolio, running the risk of misunderstanding the nature of markets. We have heard in evidence from people and from going round talking that this does seem to be quite an interesting point but it does not seem to sit very comfortably with anyone's property portfolio. You could end up "having it" as part of your brief and you do not really know anything about markets. You seem to think central government has been part of this marginalisation process. I would quite like your views on that.
Mr Nicholson: When I first became involved
with markets 30-odd years ago, each local authority had its own markets
committee. It had a director of markets
and a mini-bureaucracy around running a market.
Now, there are only maybe one or two local authorities in the country -
the City of
Q280 Anne Main: You blame central government for that.
Mr Nicholson: The central government issue is different. It is the pressure from the Treasury for local authorities to manage their assets. You will hear a lot about asset management, not all of which is bad, but in reviewing their property portfolios, as local authorities are bound to do, they have to within the current constraints view markets and market property in much the same way as they view other property that they own. Often they will look at the return from their markets and think they could get a better return or perhaps they will sell them off because they have pressure to sell off their assets.
Q281 Anne Main: That is street markets.
Mr Nicholson: Street markets are slightly
different. I am talking about where a
local authority owns an indoor market -
Mr Auguste: You have to understand that our competitors - for example, big supermarket chains - have a unique decision possibility. They have a staff and they can implement in every supermarket belonging to the company the same policy and attitude. We do not want every market to be a clone of another. To help you understand, central government can on some aspects give to so many city councils, so many markets, at least some very important help.
Q282 David
Wright: You said that there was a policy vacuum in
Mr Nicholson: Central government?
Q283 David Wright: Yes.
Mr Nicholson: We would concur that what the market industry needs in central government, wherever it is located, is a champion for markets which currently does not exist.
Q284 David Wright: Should that be a minister or a civil servant?
Mr Nicholson: It should probably be a minister and it should be BERR. Markets have an economic purpose. They are businesses. You could argue that they have a social purpose because historically they have existed in these places for a very long time but essentially they are business focused. If you are going to have a champion in government, which is what we need and do not have at the moment, it has to be in a department which has some relevance. Planning and regulatory things obviously do have a relevance. DCLG has played a part in PPS6 and promoting markets but essentially it is a business focus that it needs and the champion could and should come from BERR.
Q285 David
Wright: What happens in the rest of
Mr Auguste: We have a champion in
Q286 David Wright: What practical help does that minister provide?
Mr Auguste: Last year in
Q287 David Wright: So reduce bureaucracy?
Mr Auguste: This is an example. The other problem was to help lobbying to
Q288 David
Wright: Would you say that that capacity is not
available in the
Mr Nicholson: What helps clarify this to me is to think: where do markets sit in the chain of produce? Downstream from the market you have agriculture, if you are talking about food in particular. We have the Ministry of Agriculture that can deal with farming and all those kinds of things. Upstream you have the retail world. There is competition law, planning laws and all those kinds of things that apply. In the middle you have markets. That is where the focus needs to apply. Very little attention is paid to that key, pivotal role whether it is a wholesale or a retail market. That is why there needs to be a champion for that bit of the chain which is the market in the middle. We would argue it should be BERR. The essence of a market is about competition and commerce. It is much more logical that the energy from government and the focus are applied in that part of the chain.
Q289 Sir
Paul Beresford: You mentioned
Mr Nicholson: A lot was made of the London
Act as being restrictive on
Q290 Mr Hands: As the MP for the area, it comes under the town centre manager for Fulham, which is not quite the same thing as a council officer dedicated full time to the market. It comes under the same person who is responsible for the retail frontage and other things.
Mr Nicholson: That is a recent innovation. That is a wholly good thing. The town centre management function has suddenly now appeared on the radar and has taken up the mantel and filled the vacuum which was left by the fact that there were not market managers in the way that previously there had been.
Q291 Mr Hands: I am slightly confused about the legislation. We have heard about the London Corporation Act. Others have told us about the London Local Authorities Act 1990 as amended. Do you happen to know which Act? Perhaps it is both Acts. People have particularly told us that one of the problems is that one Act or both Acts prevent any profit making by a local authority in its management of the market. Is that particularly the issue? My second question is about restrictive practices and whether, in your experience, some markets have problems due to restrictive practices preventing new entrants from coming into the market. You could have a rule for example that there cannot be a pitch within six pitches of an existing pitch that does the same product range, which effectively prevents newcomers coming into a market, which is sort of done in the name of protecting the market, but it can often have the perverse effect of preventing renewal and different people coming into the same market.
Mr Nicholson: Jean-Paul manages East Street Market which is one of the big markets south of the Elephant and Castle.
Mr Auguste: We are not yet managing the
market so we have no influence right now.
We have the same rule in
Q292 Chair:
You
think the legal framework in
Mr Nicholson: Yes. I am not sure how much of an obstacle it is. It is undoubtedly not helpful because it effectively turns local authorities into licensing authorities, not marketing authorities. In relation to the issue of competition, that is quite a difficult issue. The nature of markets is to encourage competition. In building up the Borough Market from nothing to what it is today, we have a lot of people who apply to come to the market. By and large, there is no restriction except quality. If you have four fish stalls and someone else applies to be a fish stall holder in the market, you have to take some kind of management decision as to whether you think the customer base will support another fish stall within the market.
Q293 Mr Hands: That is contrary to what the nature of a market is. You are essentially operating in a non-market way.
Mr Nicholson: I do not think you are. The same thing would apply in a shopping centre or in any other kind of situation. These are businesses. It is not a completely open ended, free market situation. You have to manage these situations.
Q294 Mr Hands: If you cannot have markets in markets, it seems to me it makes it very difficult. Surely somebody would have done their homework and thought, "I can sell fish better than the person four pitches away"?
Mr Nicholson: It is not as simple as that. Then you have to make a choice because there are only so many pitches in any one market. On the face of it you would say, "Okay, your quality is sufficient to come into the Borough Market." We also have several hundred other applicants and you are making a balance as to whether you want another fish stall in that market or whether you want another stall selling meat, vegetables or whatever.
Q295 Chair: I can see how this is in your interest managing the market but is it in the interest of the consumer? One of the things that individual members of the public like about a market is that you have lots of stalls very close together and you can wander around and get the best buy.
Mr Auguste: This is a complex process. You have to understand the population, the clients. You have to adapt the merchandising of this stall. It is competing against others. It has to offer what the population is waiting for. You can make some mistakes but if you have the final clients in mind you will be close to the solution. You have to understand the merchandising needed on the site, as George was saying.
Mr Nicholson: I think there is confusion as
to what a market is. I do not know any
retailer who operates a totally free market situation anywhere, except maybe
somewhere in downtown
Q296 Mr Hands: There is no restriction that prevents barber shops being very close to each other. Very close to North End Road Market, there are about three barber shops. They have all set up. One is a break away from another and they compete. It is in the customer interest. Nobody has a problem with that. No town centre manager comes along and says, "There are too many barber shops here. We want to manage the process. Instead of hairdressing, we are going to have an extra cheese shop", do they? Why should that happen in your market?
Mr Nicholson: Because we are running a market.
Mr Auguste: I would give an image of some markets on the continent. The problem of a market is that it has many exits and entrances. A supermarket has only one door. You are obliged to go through that and you are obliged to go through a route within the store. They can organise the merchandising and the location of each product in the store. In a market you have to disperse different stalls in order to provoke within the clients' brain the need to go everywhere in the market. It is a different way of managing. We have experience of markets, apart from fishmongers, fruit and veg etc. Generally, they are working less than the markets where you are dispersing the products and obliging a promenade.
Q297 Dr Pugh: Is it the case that a successful market requires, unless it is just a very specialised market that sells one thing like in a fish market, a diversity and you will not get that diversity unless you manage the situation so that you get the diversity in that market?
Mr Auguste: Exactly. You need the diversity.
Q298 Anne Main: You did mention PPS6 in passing. Do you think PPS6 should be improved, altered or amended in any way, shape or form? Do you have any concerns?
Mr Nicholson: It is essential in the new, merged PPS6 and PPS4 and whichever other ones that are going to be merged with it - we will hear later this week or whenever, when the new, merged PPS comes out - that at the very least the paragraph in PPS6 should be carried through to the new document. It is a very important paragraph and recognition from government that DCLG, in issuing PPS6 in the first place, had a paragraph for the first time which specifically addressed in planning terms the importance of markets. It is important that that is carried through into the new guidance which emerges later this spring or summer.
Q299 Chair: This is your opportunity to have your wish list. Is there something else that should be added to PPS6? The Minister is sitting behind you so if you do not say it now you have missed the opportunity.
Mr Nicholson: I think what is in PPS6 is fine because it is a call to arms. It is asking local authorities to recognise that street markets and indoor markets have an important function within their towns, city centres and villages throughout the country.
Mr Auguste: I agree with George.
Chair: Thanks very much.
Witness: Mr Iain Wright, MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, CLG, gave evidence.
Q300 Chair: Welcome, Minister. In the evidence that we have been taking thus far, a lot of people have been explaining to us how important markets are, but there seems to be an absence of any quantitative data. What people are saying is qualitative. How important does the government believe markets are as part of the retail sector? Has the department done any work on quantifying their importance?
Mr Wright: I really welcome what the select committee is doing on this. I think it is a really important issue, which sort of answers the question to some extent. The government does think that markets are a hugely important and positive part of the retail offer. One of the things I would be keen to explore with the Committee is to what extent this is all part of a wider, fundamental town centre strategy, because I think markets are intrinsically linked to town centres. You mentioned quantitative data. There have been some academic exercises carried out with regard to this. In 2005 there was data. Also, in terms of the local authorities' role in monitoring what is needed, in terms of data and the retail offer, in terms of changes in numbers of commercial spaces, retail units. That is part of the annual monitoring return that local authorities provide to government officers. We do collate things. I would be willing to negotiate and discuss with the Committee what else you think needs to be done, but the data is there.
Q301 Chair: The department itself has not taken any steps to commission research or collect data?
Mr Wright: Only in terms of the annual monitoring returns that local authorities provide in terms of the wider retail offer.
Q302 Sir Paul Beresford: It is very important but you have not looked at it?
Mr Wright: It is very important. One of the key things is this interchange and potential conflict between central and local government. I do think local government is in the driving seat here. I will mention PPS6 and the paragraph that the previous witness referred to. We do think that is an extremely important part of the planning framework that provides local authorities with the tools and incentives to make sure that they can retain and enhance local markets as part of that wider ----
Q303 Sir Paul Beresford: Some of the local authorities are saying you are getting in the way with the legislation. They are worried about approaching you because you will only make it worse and add to it.
Mr Wright: That is certainly not something that has come across my desk. I do not want to have a hands off approach. What we want to be able to do is to facilitate and enable local authorities to have the tools to put in place planning policies that can help markets thrive.
Anne Main: There have been comments when we have been out and about that central government could get more involved with people at a local level by having advice shops, one stop market stalls for example, the equivalent to Citizens' Advice, advice on benefits, getting out there and talking to people rather than expecting people to turn up at offices. Are you looking to make government more accessible to local people through the use of markets? I gather there was a pilot. We were told about it. I cannot remember where it was operating.
Q304 Chair: I think that was an initiative of Sheffield Council.
Mr Wright: I think you raise a really important point. There is an opportunity at the moment in the recession when there are vacant units both in markets and in traditional shopping centres to provide government services and advice for people. What we are keen to see is a wider vision for the town centre which includes markets, which will also have advice about benefits, employment, health, skills and retraining. I think that is a key part of what we need to be doing.
Q305 Anne Main: Would you strengthen the guidance in PPS6 when it comes out and suggest a wider role for markets in delivering social, economic community benefits?
Mr Wright: I think there is an important point that the Committee has as part of this inquiry which is the importance of social inclusion. I think a key part of that is providing information that is of use to consumers and citizens in the form of benefits, jobseekers' advice, health, training, and we can use some of the vacant units that are there because of the recession and unfortunately because of the demise of some retail units like Woolworths to help push that vision.
Q306 Anne Main: A market stall would be cheaper for the taxpayer.
Mr Wright: In my own constituency in years gone by, local authorities have put in place stalls in traditional markets that have provided skills and training advice for certain members of the community. Local authorities can be in the driving seat with regard to this but I do see the recession as an opportunity in terms of what our town centres are for. Shops are important. The retail offer is important but, in the face of other ways in which we can purchase things like the internet, it needs to be something else and civic and cultural amenities within our town centres which can include really good markets can help enforce and consolidate that vision which is so important.
Q307 Sir
Paul Beresford: The legislation in
Mr Wright: One of the great beauties of
select committees is looking at oral evidence, seeing an issue that has emerged
and then going away to officials to say, "This has not come across my
desk. What is happening with
this?" It has not been flagged up
as a major concern from
Q308 David Wright: Perhaps it has not come across your desk because people clearly do not know where to go. The evidence we have just heard is that there is not a coherent voice for markets within government. You heard one of the previous witnesses say how different that was in France and how that process could potentially reduce bureaucracy and aid liaison for example with the EU. Why are we not doing that here?
Mr Wright: If I can answer that by
mentioning one of the other themes which seems to be emerging from this
inquiry, which is whether we should have a Minister for Markets or a champion
in Whitehall, whether at ministerial or official level, my answer to that is
slightly mixed. I think traditional
retail markets and wider town centre management span such a wide range of
Q309 David Wright: Do you have any examples where regional development agencies have supported markets or where national government has put direct help in to support specific activity, not necessarily on its own? Maybe it has prompted local authorities to do it. Is there any strategic evidence that you have of central or regional government doing anything proactive to help markets?
Mr Wright: In terms of the big
regeneration schemes of the past decade or so - things like New Deal for
communities, something like £2 billion over 10 years; neighbourhood renewal
funding which has been about £3 million in the 88 the most deprived areas -
there has been a range of those. What
government policy is trying to do at the moment is not to ring fence specific
allocations of money but to provide as much flexibility as possible for local
authorities to determine their own policies and priorities. I think that is the right approach to
take. Local authorities can determine
best what is needed in their own particular patch. Having said that, you mentioned regional
development agencies. I would also
mention the Homes and Communities Agency, which is tasked with facilitating the
regeneration of communities in
Q310 Dr Pugh: Looking at regional development agencies as a whole, they do tend to favour, do they not, the large infrastructure projects that you can see? Clearly, market development ticks a number of good economic development boxes. Local produce is used. Local employment is generated. People are attracted to an area and so on, but it is fairly small scale stuff, is it not? It does not change things in the dramatic way that sometimes regional development agencies like to change things. Are you aware outside the north east of any behaviour by regional development agencies that does positively stimulate and support markets?
Mr Wright: Specifically in terms of retail led regeneration, particularly in town centres, it has been a key feature of the past decade. When regional development agencies have been involved in that, the relocation of markets has been an important consideration. Sometimes that has worked. One of the considerations of the Committee has been the siting, location and place of markets. That is absolutely crucial. In direct answer to your question, what I would suggest is that the relationship between regional development agencies and local authorities and the interchange and conflict between them is the right approach to take in terms of how markets and town centres fit in with the regional development agencies.
Q311 Dr Pugh: The onus would be on the local authority to talk to the local traders and so on and then put the proposition to the regional development agency rather than expecting the regional development agency to adopt a hands on approach, dealing with each individual market trader in a market?
Mr Wright: In terms of best practice, what I would like to see is local authorities having a vision for their town centres in which markets need to be a key consideration. In terms of trying to determine that vision, it is working in consultation and in conjunction with RDAs, with the Homes and Communities Agency and with other bodies to ensure that that vision can be realised.
Q312 David Wright: Is that phrase "key element of strategy" going to be in the government's future strategic documents published by RDAs? It strikes me at the moment that we all think markets are great - a bit motherhood and apple pie - but nobody ever says it in a strategic document at a regional level. Nobody ever really talks about it at that level.
Mr Wright: I think regional spatial strategies sometimes mention it but I would certainly mention PPS6 again and that key paragraph - paragraph 2.27 I think it is - where local authorities have a role to play in retaining and enhancing markets as part of their town centre offer. I think that is absolutely crucial. I personally think that is very strong wording for a planning policy statement that is welcome and to be encouraged and local authorities need to act upon that.
Q313 Chair: David has said that it is all motherhood and apple pie. Are we relying on individual local authorities to realise that their market is an asset, not something they are just lumbered with? Is the government's role simply to facilitate it or should the government be a bit more directive?
Mr Wright: I think that is a fundamental policy issue, not just focusing on markets and town centres. You have talked about public lavatories in a similar way. I am very conscious as a minister within communities and local government that we are trying to have a policy of devolving power and responsibility down to local level. Ann Coffey, in her evidence to you, said that central government does not have a role to compel or dictate with regard to that. I think that is the right approach to take. We can facilitate. We can provide strong, robust planning and policy frameworks. We can provide guidance. We can provide encouragement. We can provide funding to some extent through local authorities, through RDAs and through the Homes and Communities Agency but, in terms of where we sit, you must have a market. I do not think that is the role of central government. I think local authorities should determine what is necessary in their area to produce their vision.
Q314 Sir Paul Beresford: Those who want a champion, a minister whose portfolio includes this, want somebody who can pull it together. You described a dog's breakfast of legislation in all the government departments. No one pulls it together and what markets are saying to us is that if a tiny corner of your role or BERR's role was that every time anything linked to the markets came across a desk it also came across that minister's desk and people in the local government and the markets had a problem with a new piece of legislation coming through, they could come to a minister who understands.
Mr Wright: I would still reiterate that in terms of anything to do with planning or the relationship with local government CLG is well placed to try and deal with that. Different departments bring different agendas for a whole variety of reasons and that is to be welcomed.
Q315 Sir Paul Beresford: I have been a minister. I know that you can still have anything involving markets come across your desk and the markets that are having trouble with a particular department could come to you as a champion or somebody else.
Mr Wright: I think there is certainly
consideration to be given to the idea of some sort of champion within
Q316 Anne Main: You have partly answered my question but stallholders are happily saying to us that the trouble is that it is almost a brief that nobody wants and it also just seems a money-collecting exercise, yet they, as small businesses, might contribute a lot to the community; they might contribute all sorts of social and other welfare benefits to a community in terms of cohesion and integration, but they have no-one that they can go to to access anything in terms of business advice, in terms of being involved in decision-making about how the business as a whole operates within their own city. I think it would be important if the Government actually made that conscious decision that they suddenly pull all those strands together, because the trouble with it falling to everybody's little patch means that everybody says it is not their responsibility and they push it to somewhere else. If I were a market stallholder where would I be expected to go? If I were a small business I would know where to go, but they are small businesses of a specific sort.
Mr Wright: I would suggest the local authority needs to be in the driving seat here. Again, one of the things I have been struck by when reading the oral hearings for the inquiry is that good, positive, proactive management, both of markets and the wider town centres, means that markets can thrive.
Q317 Anne Main: Are you aware that in local authorities the person with the responsibility for markets may well be having the responsibility for, say, parks and gardens, which I think was one of the ones we were told, may well have town centre management, may well have a different brief entirely, maybe the planning department. Because in government there is no central vision of this there is often not at a local level either. As government surely you should set a lead with perhaps good guidance and good practice to local authorities and maybe even a bit of help with funding to perhaps ensure that there is training available for people who are going to manage markets. Do you believe there should be any expertise or expert help available to local authorities?
Mr Wright: I would suggest that, with respect to good practice in terms of how you manage markets and the wider point about town centres, central government has provided guidance. We provided guidance in 2005. That was updated in 2007. We have provided a toolkit for local authorities.
Q318 Anne Main: Specifically with markets in mind?
Mr Wright: As I said, important though markets are in terms of the wider retail offer, I also think it is absolutely crucial that in order for markets to thrive they need to be seen in the wider context of town centre strategies and good, positive, proactive town centre management where there is an emphasis upon increased competition in terms of a good diversity of what is on offer in terms of that retail offer and in terms of other things like culture and recreation. I think that is very important and I do think that local authorities have a key role to play in that.
Q319 Anne Main: Some towns see their market as a bit of a messy area that they would not mind if it withered on the vine and went. I am not saying that is very true in many areas, and in fact it is probably not true of how the public see it, but if you were perhaps to consider offering a lead in this and better guidance to local authorities, they might start taking markets seriously because, in terms of all the benefits you are talking about, how much of that do you say to local authorities? Do you actually say, "Deliver all these benefits", which is why markets suddenly start becoming a special case, because I do not think W H Smith, for example, sees itself as delivering all those other benefits that you have just outlined?
Mr Wright: No, but, as I said, I do reiterate the point about that wider, proactive town centre strategy, and we have provided guidance. We provided a good practice toolkit in October 2008 with regard to that.
Q320 Anne Main: Does it mention markets? What does it say about markets?
Mr Wright: It needs to be considered in terms of a good, diverse retail offer that also incorporates civic, recreational, community and cultural amenities.
Q321 Anne Main: Did it actually mention the word "market" in there?
Mr Wright: I think it did. I would need to confirm and check back on that.
Q322 Anne Main: Because if it did not mention "market" at least once in there people might assume that toolkit did not really include markets.
Mr Wright: But I would come back to that important paragraph 2.27 of PPS6, which is, as I said, very strong about town centres and local authorities needing to consider as part of that wider strategy retaining and enhancing existing markets. These are potentially a great offer, and in the face of huge economic pressures, in the face of intense competition from the internet and other things, markets can provide a distinctive offer. They can help people of all different ages and all different income groups. Local authorities I think are best placed to recognise that and to determine what is needed in their particular area.
Q323 Anne Main: So you will be retaining that?
Mr Wright: What we are trying to do is streamline planning policy statements so that we give them the new planning policy statement, Planning for Prosperous Economies, which we will be publishing shortly.
Q324 Anne Main: It will have the word "market" prominently in it?
Mr Wright: I am afraid you will have to wait on that.
Q325 Chair:
Just
before we move on to the issue which Mr Hands is going to ask about, can I just
clarify something on this issue relating to
Mr Wright: They have certainly not spoken to me or my officials with regard to this. My understanding is that the 1990 Act has been subsequently amended almost on an annual basis throughout the 1990s. I will promise to go away and have a look at this but, as I said, no-one has ever tried to lobby me on trying to change this particular piece of legislation.
Q326 Chair:
The
question that I am asking, and the point that David made that there is not a
minister of markets so they would not necessarily know which minister to go
for, is about the process. Are the
Mr Wright: As I said, Chair, they have not come and contacted me for me to do something with my ministerial hat on with regard to planning. Let me go away and inform the Committee in terms of whether they spoke to any other ministerial colleagues. It could be, for example, that they have gone to John Healey as Minister for Local Government.
Q327 Chair: It is not simply ministerial colleagues. It is who the London local authorities, when they seek to amend on this annual basis the London Local Authorities Act, are communicating with at a parliamentary or civil servant or ministerial level, because I think it would help to illuminate the confusion that there is out there about who is supposed to be responsible for these matters. If you could let us have a note on that it would be helpful.
Mr Wright: It certainly has not been me, Chair, but I will let you know.
Q328 Mr Hands: How often do you meet with representatives of the markets industry?
Mr Wright: Very rarely, I have to be honest.
Q329 Mr Hands: Have you ever met them?
Mr Wright: I think I have but it might have only been on one or two occasions, so yes, I hold my hands up and say I have very rarely met with them.
Q330 Mr Hands: You think you have but you are not even sure if you have?
Mr Wright: No. I have been Minister for about two and a half years. I think it might have only been the once.
Q331 Mr Hands: Would you therefore be in a position to be able to answer the next question - I am not sure if you would - as to whether you think the industry should be doing more to help itself and what the industry could be doing to help promote markets and to help the better functioning of markets?
Mr Wright: I think I am in a position to answer this. One of the great initiatives that I have noticed when I have been researching this particular Select Committee's inquiry is the web-based form. I think it has been a hugely successful event with a lot of traders having feedback and putting their views in. They say people should speak to traders more and there is a case for that. What I also think is that traders should speak to local authorities which help manage markets and town centres, and more interaction should be made with consumers. There is a traditional thought that says that the traditional retail market is declining. I think there is conflicting evidence with regard to that, but in terms of what is on offer, what sort of service is provided and, crucially, how you pay for that service, my understanding is that most markets deal with cash and it is a case of would credit and debit cards help facilitate greater trade? That interaction is important. In terms of your specific comment, I think good management between the local authority and traders can help do that.
Q332 Mr Hands: So you are saying that better interaction is the answer but you yourself are not sure if you have ever interacted with the industry?
Mr Wright: And I hold my hands up there.
Q333 Mr Hands: Going back to where we started from, which is where markets find their natural home in government, Mr Nicholson and the other contributor earlier were quite clearly of the opinion that it should be under BERR. I think Mr Nicholson made the point, which I think sounded very valid, that the most important thing about a market is that people have to want to run a market and have to recognise that it is something that has to be economically viable, so the social benefits or community benefits have to definitely be viewed secondarily. A market cannot survive unless it is viable, so can I come back to the point whether, given the fact you are not sure if you have ever had a meeting with the market industry representatives, you still think DCLG is the natural home or whether it should be moved to BERR?
Mr Wright: Yes, I think that Communities and Local Government should be the central point for markets, one, because of its planning functions in respect of providing a good planning policy framework, and more important than that perhaps is the interaction with local government. Given the responsibilities for local government that CLG has, I think that would be the natural place for it.
Q334 Mr Hands: Can I urge you, if you think that DCLG should be the central point for markets, to indeed have a meeting with the market industry as soon as possible? If you think that is the case, then logically you should want to have that meeting.
Mr Wright: I think that is a fair point. What I would say is that over the past 20 or 30 years - and, Anne, this is going back to your point that perhaps a lot of local authorities have shunted markets into a back corner - I think markets have been quite unfashionable. One of my other interests is allotments and I think markets are now going to come back into their own in a very similar way to allotments. I think there is an awful lot of interest in this, I think there is an awful lot of opportunity with regard to the current recession, and I think we are going to see a renaissance in markets. I am quite optimistic here and that is why I think this inquiry is quite well timed.
Q335 Mr Hands: You are basing your optimism on still having not met the market industry?
Mr Wright: No. I am basing this upon what I think we need to do in terms of economic development, in terms of regeneration, which is to have town centres at the very core of that. I think good, active town centre management, incorporating a whole range of things, as I said, whether it is retail, whether it is cultural, where it is providing information about government services, can be done in markets and in that wider town centre. That is why I am optimistic. On the second point, as I said, where people can buy things electronically at home in their pyjamas, shopping centres and markets have to offer something more, a destination point where people can go and meet and congregate and access cultural and recreational services - that is where local authorities need to be at.
Q336 David Wright: I have not bought anything in my pyjamas yet. I would like to put that on the record. You have described how you want to meet with the market sector, you want to start to explore national issues. What links can you see the Government developing in terms of using markets to promote national policy goals? Healthy eating is a good example, the availability of fresh fruit, the promotion of locally produced produce or fair trade products in particular communities. What more can we do?
Mr Wright: I think Defra has been very strong with regard to this and has helped push, promote and to some extent fund the expansion of farmers' markets. Farmers' markets typically seem to be the promotion of local produce, helping local producers, and I think in terms of that, in terms of having an impact upon the environment, reducing air miles with respect to food produce, Defra has been quite strong. That is the key consideration that I would mention. In terms of advocating fresh fruit and vegetables, particularly locally produced, Defra has provided help for farmers' markets.
Q337 David Wright: You have talked a lot about town centre regeneration and I think we all accept that markets can be a key component of that. I am just wondering, if you are going to take a lead as a Minister, what other departments you would see drawing in. Presumably Defra?
Mr Wright: I think Defra is important in terms of food. What I would like to see, and it could be on market stalls and it could be as part of the town centre and I think this is very consistent with policy in this particular department, is the Department of Health's policy that you push local health services as locally as possible, and the idea of having health checks, having GP practices or some degree of health service in markets or in town centres I think needs to be explored more. I think that is a potential avenue of growth. The Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills has also got a bit of money which is pushing forward the skills agenda, so having advice and support and opportunities to access training in markets and in town centres is another opportunity. It is all part of the answer that I tried to give earlier to Anne in respect of accessing government services at the very centre of town.
Q338 Anne Main: Who is going to take the role of suggesting that to those departments? Who is going to take the role of suggesting to health or to the education department that maybe this is how you ought to be getting in contact with local people? If nobody is going to champion it and suggest this multi-faceted tool that could be the market to all these different departments, how is it going to happen?
Mr Wright: I would suggest that is already happening. With regard to the health example, the Department of Health talks to primary care trusts which in turn commission services, and that push, which, as I said, is very consistent with trying to provide health services as locally as possible -----
Q339 Anne Main: We have not had express representations to us saying this is happening. I would be quite interested if we could have some evidence to show how widespread that good practice you have just described is, because my understanding was, talking to somebody we met on the market, that there were a few odd pilot schemes here, possibly in areas of major deprivation, but it certainly was not a widespread practice.
Mr Wright: Okay.
Q340 Chair: Can I just follow up on that point? In the evidence from the department, Minister, it was stated that the Government intends to develop detailed policy statements over the coming months, "offering advice and guidance at the local level" based on the Markets Policy Framework produced by the All-Party Parliamentary Group. How far have you got in those policy statements and is it going to cover the sorts of detailed issues that we are currently talking about?
Mr Wright: We are at a relatively early stage in respect of that. The timescale is the next couple of months and what I would like to see is an element of consistency with regard to that wider planning policy statement of Planning for Prosperous Economies, which I think is very important as well, so I will keep you very closely posted on that.
Q341 Anne Main: Minister, could I ask you though, because you did not answer my question, I am sorry to say, what information have any of the departments been given, and can we have evidence that they are actually disseminating this good practice, that it is not just the odd pilot scheme? Also, who would co-ordinate those best practices that you think are happening? How do we know? Who is doing it?
Mr Wright: I have mentioned two. This is on the wider point of town centre management and (which is think is very important) about providing a vision about what a town centre does. In the 21st century what can it offer local people? I would suggest that it needs to be more than just shops. It needs to offer that wider point about government services, about health, about retail. In terms of trying to address that whilst at the same trying to address the specific concerns of the recession, you may be aware of the announcement and the publication of new guidance last week from the Secretary of State from my department, Hazel Blears, and also Andy Burnham at DCMS, which is what town centres need to do in the current recession. It could be to try and be as flexible as possible, to use vacant units to encourage community groups, voluntary residents' associations and health groups in order to push that vision.
Q342 Anne Main: I was specifically talking about markets. The one thing about markets is that you do not have to take a shop unit for six months or a year. You could have a stall for a week here, a week there. It can be an ever-evolving process, assuming there is a vacancy, and you did suggest, before you moved helpfully on to retail units that might be empty, that you thought that this would be a vehicle for delivery of other government areas of concern, such as healthy eating and information about benefits, and you mentioned some sort of medical advice one-stop shop. Leaving aside the empty retail units, is there anything you are going to be doing to markets to say that this is how this is going to happen?
Mr Wright: I think one of the things that government has to grapple with is how it gets its message across on a whole variety of things. In the electronic age, in terms of whether we use direct.gov.uk but also for people who may not have access to the internet in deprived areas like my own, how do you get that message across? I will hold my hands up again and say I think we can be pushing that a lot more in terms of using markets, using places where people congregate to get important government messages across.
Anne Main: So how would it happen?
Q343 Chair: There are two slightly separate things here, both of which are important. One is the use of markets to get messages out, but the other issue behind that, and I am not clear whether it is going to be within this advice and guidance that you are currently considering, is the role of markets in delivering wider national policy goals, one of which, for example, is access to, for people on low incomes, fresh fruit and vegetables. Many people say that markets are a really good way of doing that. That appears to be a national policy goal. Is that going to be one of the things that is spelt out in the advice and guidance at a local level on markets, for example?
Mr Wright: Let me go away and look at that in particular with regard to health. Can I mention another matter, which is -----
Q344 Chair: Hang on a minute. In terms of the work which the department has done thus far on the advice and guidance at local level which you are apparently developing over the next few months, have other departments already been asked to contribute to that?
Mr Wright: I am not entirely certain so I will need to check.
Q345 Chair: Who has been doing it within your department then?
Mr Wright: In terms of the ministerial responsibility or in terms of officials, because there are officials working on it?
Q346 Chair: So there are officials working on it, but who has ministerial responsibility?
Mr Wright: I have ministerial responsibility.
Q347 Chair: But you do not know exactly what they are up to?
Mr Wright: Can I mention a specific
example from my own constituency with regard to getting the message
across? In terms of jobs,
Q348 Mr Hands: We are back to your ministerial responsibility.
Mr Wright: I think it is very important that local authorities also have a role to play in terms of different agencies.
Q349 Chair: Hang on; we are not letting you off the hook so quickly. As you know, we are in the middle of writing up our report on the balance of power between central and local government, so take it as read that we do not think that you should be, Stalinist-like, telling councils that they need to do this and they need to do that. What we are asking is whether, if government believes that there are some national policy goals, of which an example would be access to cheap fruit and veg which can be delivered through markets, that sort of guidance, not instruction but guidance, is part of these detailed policy statements which your department is currently developing. That is the first question.
Mr Wright: And I would certainly say that is my ambition, yes.
Q350 Chair: The second thing then, since it is quite clear that these policy things are pretty vague at the moment, is that it would be very helpful to us as a committee to know the timescale on which they are going to be finalised so that we can make sure that our report gives you lots of stuff that you can put in these policy guidelines.
Mr Wright: I will certainly make sure in the next couple of days that you get the timescales.
Chair: That would be extremely helpful.
Q351 Anne Main: Since you are responsible for markets, and obviously we have just mentioned health, who would be liaising between those other departments? Who will have the responsibility to do that?
Mr Wright: In terms of liaising with regard to make sure that a planning policy statement is published?
Q352 Anne Main: No, no. If there is a health objective, for example, so that is the Department of Health, not DCLG, who is going to be talking to the Department of Health to ensure that what they wish to happen is reflected in your planning policy guidances?
Mr Wright: Officials from my department will be liaising with their counterparts in the Department of Health.
Q353 Anne Main: Is that happening at the moment? Has that all been set up?
Mr Wright: My understanding is that it has, yes.
Q354 Anne Main: So there will be an official liaising with BERR, because it is the business side of it?
Mr Wright: Yes. There are also very strong links with Defra.
Anne Main: Defra is an obvious one, if I might say. It is the other parts that are not so obvious that we are trying to get at.
Q355 Chair: It is also within your own department. There is a role for markets within community cohesion, for example, but it is within whatever bit it is of the department that is doing markets.
Mr Wright: My understanding is that, yes, it is.
Chair: I think, Minister, we might have to write to you after this with a series of questions to make sure we have covered everything, but we would certainly like a note from you afterwards on the time line so that we can make sure that we can contribute to this area of policy which is clearly quite skeletal at the moment.
Anne Main: But vital.
Chair: But vital, absolutely. Thank you very much, Minister.