Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-119)
LORD MOYNIHAN,
MR SIMON
CLEGG AND
MR TIM
BRABANTS
7 OCTOBER 2008
Q100 Rosemary McKenna: Would that
apply to the Paralympics as well because I think it is very important
that we learn all the lessons from the athletes involved?
Lord Moynihan: I absolutely agree
with you. London 2012 is about two great Games, we hope, the Olympic
Games and the Paralympic Games, and we certainly would be remiss
if we did not recognise the stunning performance of the Paralympians
in Beijing and the importance that we attach to their requests,
their interests and their needs when it comes to hosting a great
Games for the Paralympians. We do not have a direct responsibility
for the British Paralympic Association, the BPA, which exists
alongside the BOA, but we work very closely not least with the
Olympic Board to make sure that their interests are fully represented
as well in the planning. I know that Lord Coe is absolutely focused
on this and we have the great advantage of having one organising
committee looking at both Games which is very unusual; indeed
unprecedented.
Q101 Rosemary McKenna: I think for
me one of the great and tremendous advances of the Beijing Games
was the way the Chinese now approach any kind of disability and
I think that is just fantastic. It has changed their whole perspective
and hopefully that will continue. I think that happens every time
there is a Paralympic event or any event like that, that it does
change and improve people's perceptions, but once again congratulations
to everyone because it was fantastic.
Mr Clegg: Could I just add a supplementary
to how Tim answered that last question because I think it may
be helpful to the whole Committee to understand the very rigid
guidelines the IOC lay down, not only in terms of the Olympic
Village, but of course the whole of the Games. The host city contract
is a legally binding document between the signatories and the
International Olympic Committee and this actually prescribes not
only the number of people who can actually share one particular
room, but the amount of space in terms of square metreage per
individual inside the Village, the ratio between bedrooms and
bathrooms, so it really is quite prescribed and there is not a
lot of flexibility for any organising committee, let alone LOCOG,
to actually step outside of that.
Lord Moynihan: Should there be
any changes to the bid documentation on that, we, as the British
Olympic Association, need to sign off on those changes. That is
a process that is under way at the moment. We are reviewing the
proposed changes. Our particular mandate is to make sure that
the interests of the athletes, not just the British, but all athletes,
are well served.
Q102 Chairman: But Tim highlighted
the superior facilities which British athletes had in the run-up.
How did that come about? Did you just sort of get to the hotel
before anybody else got to it?
Lord Moynihan: To spare Simon's
blushes again on this occasion, let me just give you one example.
Giving support to athletes is all about attention to detail. In
Macau at the training camp I witnessed on a daily basis precise
co-ordination between those running that training camp and those
ensuring the athletes boarded their plane without delay to go
up to Beijing. It was a seamless transition. The plane was on
time, it was sitting there on the tarmac and the athletes could
leave the pre-Games training camp and move very smoothly and swiftly
through the process. The tickets were there and they would go
straight through, and that was all done literally in under an
hour, whereas the Portuguese team were sitting around for nearly
three hours waiting for their flight, literally sitting there,
playing cards and waiting and getting hot and bothered. It is
about attention to detail and that is just one small, but important,
example. So yes, booking the right hotels, securing the right
training camps, ensuring the right environment for conditioning
and all the support staff, has to go down to absolute detail and
that is where Simon and the team are outstanding, in my view,
and recognised as world leaders in that context.
Q103 Chairman: Have you sorted that
out for 2012 then?
Lord Moynihan: We have got a very
strong team and we have sorted that out and I am glad that Simon
Clegg will be the chef de mission for London 2012. We have
identified the pre-Games training camp in Aldershot and we have
already done a lot of work down there prior to Beijing and it
will be very high on Simon's and the team's agenda as we move
towards that training camp.
Q104 Alan Keen: Again congratulations,
and I think at least for your medals sitting down, you faced forwards,
did you not! Simon knows that I was at the 1948 Olympics as a
ten-year-old and I was particularly thrilled at the cycling results
and I was astonished that on the way to the Grand Prix athletics
the other week at Crystal Palace, I looked round on the train
and saw that the Herne Hill track is still there. Are you looking
to make any links between the 1948 Olympics and 2012? I was astonished
to see that the track still existed there. Obviously Windsor Great
Park, where the road race was, still exists and is being well
looked after.
Mr Clegg: Of course this year
we celebrate not only the centenary of our hosting the Olympic
Games in 1908, but also the 60th anniversary of Wembley and those
two events were actually organised by the British Olympic Association
as we were the organising committee in those days, but of course
things have moved on since that time. It is LOCOG's responsibility
and, whilst my Chairman and I both sit on the Board of LOCOG,
it is LOCOG's primary responsibility for the delivery of the Games
in London in 2012 and our primary responsibility obviously has
to be with the British team, so really that question needs to
be directed towards LOCOG, but I know that they are very keen
to maximise the historical links between both 1908 and 1948 with
the 2012 Games.
Q105 Alan Keen: Obviously the increased
funding has made a vast difference to the performance of athletes.
How did it actually affect your life between the previous Olympics
and this one? How much time were you able to dedicate full-time
to it?
Mr Brabants: For me, I am an amateur
athlete and I realised that I needed to have a career after sport,
so I qualified as a doctor in 2002, so the funding allowed me
to actually do that, to achieve that and to be able to not have
to go straight into medicine full-time after I graduated. After
Athens, I was able to return to work for a period of time and
then in February 2006 I came back into sport full-time. These
options are only available because of the funding and the stability
that was in place and, as Colin was saying as well about the stability,
the money being there for the six years is really, really important
because it means I can make long-term plans not just in my sporting
career, but in my life-after-sport career as well.
Q106 Alan Keen: You have heard how
thrilled we are and you know how the country was thrilled also,
but football is my obsession and we are very concerned, those
who care about grassroots football, that the Premier League is
being owned by people who have got the most money and the top
four are predictable this season. Are we not going in the same
direction with the Olympics in that we proved that we could get
many more medals by putting money into it and there are nations
around the world who have absolutely no chance of dedicating that
amount of money to it? Is there talk within the IOC about trying
to even up the competition or keep it somewhere within arm's length
because you have already mentioned a few minutes ago the other
nations who have got good athletes and are now going to put the
same amount of money in that we put in for the 2008 Olympics?
Are there any thoughts going on in the IOC about altering this
focus on the richest nations who are obviously going to dominate
from now to the end of the century?
Mr Clegg: Obviously primarily
that is an issue for the International Olympic Committee and they
take their worldwide responsibility very seriously. The IOC has
an Olympic Solidarity Programme which is the distribution of funds
to the National Olympic Committees by virtue of their percentage
of the Olympic worldwide marketing rights, specifically targeted
towards developing nations to ensure that they do not fall further
behind the leading nations in terms of high-performance sports.
We have been involved in some modest way with a Maltese gymnast,
for example, making sure that she, who has been training at Bath
University, has access to some of the support services that we
provide over here, so that is an issue primarily for the IOC and
they do take that area of responsibility very seriously.
Q107 Alan Keen: I keep asking these
questions, but I do understand that and we have been successful
because we have been focused, but it is really up to us, and when
I say "us", I mean the British Olympic Committee and
everybody in this country, to look ahead. The IOC are not going
to change sufficiently unless we push them and we are in a wonderful
situation now where we have actually been granted the Olympics
and the preparations are going ahead, but, if anyone is going
to change and improve the outlook for other nations, it really
comes down to us, does it not, Colin?
Lord Moynihan: It does, but let
us be under no illusion that money alone does not deliver gold
medals. If it did, then the mighty US team in track and field
would have got more than six golds in athletics. The reality is
that a strong financial base creates a platform from which talent
can then flourish, but the idea that, having moved from tenth
place to fourth place, it is going to be easy to stay there is
a massive misunderstanding of the challenge ahead over the next
four years. We have got a big ask to build on Beijing. We are
up for it and we are determined to do so and there is no question
that being the host nation will be inspirational for our athletes
as we have seen that consistently of host nation teams over the
years, but I think it would be a mistake to feel that now we are
in a very strong position and fourth is guaranteed: that is just
a major misunderstanding. We have got to develop the talent and
we have got to back the athletes to deliver personal bests on
the day, as I said at the outset. Simon is going to add a very
important point on a programme that we have introduced which picks
up, Alan, on your question.
Mr Clegg: Also, now that LOCOG
is a player in this particular environment, they are taking that
responsibility. We did make a commitment in Singapore in terms
of how we were going to work with developing nations and LOCOG
have got an inspirational programme which is being piloted in
five countries, I believe, at the moment which effectively takes
the UK expertise as part of a London 2012 programme and actually
shares that with some developing nations, so that supplements
what I said about the IOC's responsibility.
Q108 Alan Keen: We have a great responsibility.
We probably won the Games for 2012 by the fact that we have got
children whose families came from all over the world, so we do
have a special responsibility. Is it true that we are going to
have less money to spend on athletes for 2012 than we did for
2008? Is there going to be a shortfall?
Lord Moynihan: We hope not. On
the assumption that the Government fully fund the Chancellor's
package as far as elite performance, in other words Team GB, is
concerned, and I am sure it will, then the funding will be in
place fully to support Team GB as we move towards 2012. On the
wider question, which I may have misinterpreted, of funding for
wider participation, which of course is a very important part
of hosting the Games, one does not want to just look at the Games
as just a 16-day summer event, but one hopes that, by hosting
the Games, all of us who love sport see the Games as an inspiration
to improve facilities, investment in new facilities as well as
upgrading the existing facilities across the country, seeing more
participation and a genuine sports legacy for this country. Those
are the big objectives, they are not delivered yet: they will
need to be fully costed and fully funded, but from the British
Olympic Association's point of view, as the host nation, we are
very keen to see a sustained improvement in sports provision and
a sustained sports legacy, and I am pleased that David Hemery
is chairing the Legacy Commission for the British Olympic Association
to ensure that, wherever possible, we argue that case because
the Games is more than, as I say, 16 days of competition.
Mr Clegg: It is absolutely critical,
this issue of funding, and we have to be very, very clear about
this. It would be simplistic, short-sighted and naive to say that
just because a particular sport failed to deliver in Beijing,
its funding ought to be cut. I could make a very good argument
that actually we ought to be increasing the funding to those sports
because we cannot simply rely on our traditionally strong sports
to deliver what we have to deliver in 2012 and we have to continue
to support, developing sports like basketball, volleyball, handball
and water polo, sports where we will be participating in London
2012, and to get them to a position where they can be competitive
so that their real legacy is competing in 2016 by virtue of their
world standing, having taken this great opportunity over the next
four years. We are going to need the total £600 million funding
to ensure that that is delivered.
Q109 Chairman: All £600 million.
Now, obviously that includes a private-sector contribution and
in the present climate it must be pretty tough to extract money
from the private sector. What happens if the private sector does
not deliver?
Lord Moynihan: It is a key question
for the Government. Our hope is that, in recognition of everything
that has been said before you today, the Government will support,
either through the Lottery or a combination of Lottery and Treasury
funding, the full amount that was recognised as necessary by the
Government and the Treasury and the BOA soon after Singapore 2005;
in order to deliver our aspirational target of fourth place in
2012. I am sure you will be asking the Government that question
and I hope that their response will be, not least because of the
success of Beijing this year, that they will be doing everything
they can to raise the money from the private sector, but should
there be a shortfall, I hope they will stand behind it.
Q110 Chairman: And as far as you
are concerned in your efforts to raise the money from the private
sector, are you still optimistic that it can be done?
Lord Moynihan: Yes, I am. We are
working hard on that at the moment. We have a joint marketing
agreement with LOCOG which delivers both value in kind and an
important element of funding. We have in our joint marketing agreement
the opportunity for fund-raising which historically we have done
for 100 years and we certainly will be doing it very actively
over the next four years. We now have, as the host nation, top
sponsors and tiered sponsors, in other words, sponsors of the
Games here in London who will be looking for an association with
the success of Team GB and we will be looking to organise and
present activation programmes to be funded to them as well over
the next four years, so it is a big ask and it is one I am now
going to focus virtually all my time on over the next three to
four months to make sure that the budget, which is still being
finalised and will need to be approved by our Board, will be fully
funded early next year.
Q111 Chairman: Have you raised any
money from the private sector yet?
Lord Moynihan: Yes, we have had
a very successful appeal this year. We continue to fund-raise
successfully and I hope you will all be coming—
Q112 Chairman: How much have you
raised from the private sector?
Mr Clegg: The British Olympic
Association turnover this year is £16 million and a significant
percentage of that comes from the commercial sector or indeed
from private-sector funding. It all comes from private-sector
funding or fund-raising is what I mean.
Q113 Chairman: But, of the original
£100 million target, have you raised anything towards that
yet? I know it has come down.
Lord Moynihan: To be helpful to
the Committee, the £100 million comes out of the £600
million that the Government package funds through UK Sport, direct
to the national governing bodies. That is completely separate
from BOA's fund-raising activities to deliver teams to Olympic-accredited
Games, so we have no direct role in raising what is now down,
as I understand, to a £79 million gap in year six over the
six years, and that is what I have been addressing my answers
to the Committee to. As far as the British Olympic Association
is concerned, that is a much smaller figure and we are raising
that principally from fund-raising from the private sector and
Simon Clegg was just outlining the status of that fund-raising
campaign.
Q114 Chairman: Can I just ask you
about one other thing. There was a certain amount of speculation
about the fact that some athletes from other countries were rewarded
for their success with cash payments, and you said that you would
perhaps examine that as a possibility. Can you tell us whether
you still think that is something we should consider?
Lord Moynihan: Tim has some quite
strong views on this and maybe he would like to start.
Mr Brabants: As an athlete, I
come across athletes and compete against athletes from those countries
that you mention that might have performance-related bonuses and
things like that. I am not a believer that that is going to make
any difference to athletes as a whole in Great Britain. It is
not going to drive me on more knowing that I am going to get a
bonus to win an Olympic medal. For me, getting this medal, this
is bonus enough for me and this is what we work for. For the athletes
themselves, I think it is right to be driven by the desire to
be winning an Olympic medal, not the desire to be getting a massive
performance bonus. I am speaking from my point of view, but I
know I compete against athletes who have not actually done that
well and perhaps that is because of the increased pressure they
have got on them because of the funding and the potential bonuses
they could get. I do not know if there is any research or that
any actual numbers have been put on how countries perform relative
to each other if they get a medal bonus or not, but that might
be quite an interesting thing to look at and whether it actually
makes a difference. I do not believe, from my personal point of
view, that it would make a difference to me getting a gold medal.
Q115 Chairman: But you presumably
would not be unhappy if you did?
Mr Brabants: You are never going
to turn it down, but, saying that, I think some of the other countries
that get performance bonuses, perhaps they do not have the same
structure that we have behind the scenes in terms of our Lottery
funding and the support for the coaches and the physiotherapists
and everything else that we get. I think the whole package that
we get is conducive to good performance, so perhaps they do not
get what we get in that respect.
Q116 Chairman: So, Colin, having
heard Tim's view—
Lord Moynihan: Taking that into
account, the answer to your question is that we have undertaken
to look at this. We have yet to look at it and we need to take
into account both the funding structure in this country and also
the views of the governing bodies, but, above all, we need to
take into account the views of the athletes. Incidentally, we
intend to strengthen the Athletes' Commission within the British
Olympic Association to ensure over the next four years that it
has a very significant input into everything we are doing in preparing
for London 2012 and you can judge by the eloquence and expertise
of Tim that that sort of input to delivering Team GB in 2012 is
very important and we will be listening carefully to his views
and indeed the views of many other athletes.
Chairman: I know you are pressed for
time, but there is one other issue which I know is of particular
interest to two of my colleagues from the nations.
Q117 Adam Price: You will remember
the controversy over the prospect of a British Olympic football
team was reignited last week over remarks that Lord Coe was reported
to have made, I think, at your reception at the Conservative Party
Conference, though it is fair to say that he denies them and they
are in any case unrepeatable. You still remain committed to the
idea presumably of a British Olympic football team. Where are
we and what have been the recent developments that you can report
to the Committee on that?
Lord Moynihan: Yes, we are committed
to entering both a men's and women's Team GB football team in
2012, but equally we respect and understand the deep feeling,
not least in Scotland and indeed in Wales and Northern Ireland
and by some fan groups and those countries' respective FAs, about
the implications or the potential implications for us moving forward
with such an entry. It is important that we listen, it is important
that we give all the FAs the confidence that their status in international
football will not be detrimentally affected. We need to work closely
with them and we need to work with the IOC. We are confident we
can achieve the objective that we have set because it would be
a huge disappointment to have an outstanding football competition
in the Olympics and not allow our young people to be represented
as part of Team GB, but I would like to leave you with the very
clear message that we do understand and respect their nervousness,
we do understand there are issues that need to be addressed and
we will address them. We are confident with the outcome, which
is one reason why the FA here in London is absolutely confident
and supportive of entering a Team GB, but we must respect, listen
carefully to, and work closely with, the home nation FAs to ensure
that their position is not jeopardised as a result of an entry
for both the men's and the women's and indeed, just as we had
a successful team at the Paralympics in Beijing, the Paralympians
will also, I am sure, be looking to enter a team again.
Q118 Adam Price: Would you continue
to press ahead with the idea in the teeth of what is at this stage
strong opposition to the idea, certainly within the Scottish and
Welsh associations? There is this confusion, is there not, between
statements that have been made by Sepp Blatter earlier in the
year and then a subsequent statement and also, we are told, and
I think we have to take it at face value, in private conversations
with the Scottish Football Association other things have been
said again which fly in the face of the most recent statements.
There is a lot of confusion and you have got Jack Warner, of course
the Trinidadian Vice President, who is opposed to the existence
of four separate home nations, so I think the nervousness in the
Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish football community is well-grounded
really and you have to be sensitive to that, so would you press
ahead in any case if the three home nation football associations
remain opposed to the idea?
Lord Moynihan: This is sequential.
We hope to gain national support. Why? Because we believe that
sports administrators and sports politics should not prevent young
sportsmen and women in whatever sport, including football, from
competing in the greatest sporting event being hosted by their
own nation if they so wish, so our objective is to achieve the
end goal of a Team GB, but we have to go through the process.
We have to sit and listen, we have to discuss this, we have to
try and alleviate concerns, we have to speak to FIFA, to UEFA,
to all parties to achieve that objective, and I am hopeful that,
with that approach, we will have a successful outcome to what
is a very sensitive issue and I do not underestimate at all how
sensitive it is, particularly with the home nations, and we need
to be responsive to that, but clearly we hope that the outcome
will be to give young people the opportunity to participate in
what, I believe, should be an amazing football tournament. One
sees the enthusiasm with which the Brazilians and the Argentinians,
particularly the South Americans, come to the Games for their
young people, bearing in mind that we are talking principally
about a team of young footballers, and I think that will catch
the national mood and the national spirit, but we need to overcome
these challenges first and we intend to do that.
Q119 Adrian Sanders: What I have
never fully understood is why there are not 200 teams playing
football in the Olympics. Is there some qualification, some threshold
they have to overcome? If there is, is not the answer to actually
have a home championship game here and whichever of the home countries
wins it then represents the team in the Olympic Games, job done?
Mr Clegg: There are a limited
number of teams which qualified for the Olympic Games. There is
a qualifying process, but, as with all other team sports in the
Olympic Games, there is automatic entry for the host nation. The
solution you have offered is one option, but I have to tell you
that the engagement that we have tried to secure unsuccessfully,
we are not even able at the moment to talk to the SFA and the
WFA about this issue, so this train is leaving the station and
the door remains open, as the Chairman has said, going forward.
Our aspiration is to have a properly represented team from across
the whole country and I think it would be a crying shame if sports
administrators could not get their act together and we are depriving
athletes from one particular part or a number of parts of our
country from participating in this great event.
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