Examination of Witnesses (Questions 140
- 145)
TUESDAY 28 OCTOBER 2008
MRS BRIGID
SIMMONDS OBE, MR
KEVIN SMYTH
AND MR
BARRY SLASBERG
Q140 Alan Keen: I visited a place
on Saturday afternoon—only drinking coffee—at the
request of a tenant and the tenant was saying that the brewery
was getting pretty tough with him and he thought that unreasonable.
His pub is quite close to managed houses of the brewery itself
and it did look as if the breweries were taking pretty strong
action to look after their own core business, and that is why
he was asking the question. Here we are obviously talking about
the Licensing Act and we must not stray too far from it, but the
point you have been making about the contribution that working
men's clubs make and sports clubs, of course, do you think that
some time in the future this Committee maybe should look at the
whole business that we are in danger of making it difficult for
clubs to operate. We know that the licensed trade helps to support
clubs of all sorts and you give social support and sports clubs
contribute to healthy living, but do you think there is a danger
of us going on a downward spiral socially?
Mrs Simmonds: Moving back to the
Licensing Act, we have recently been faced by this Safe, Sensible,
Social, which is a consultation from the Department of Health
and with it came very much at the end proposals on a mandatory
code which would have absolutely crippled sport and social clubs.
Some of the things that would be introduced are that we would
all have had to do mandatory training; we would have to have sensible
drinking messages in entrances to bars and all premises; where
no medium must be used to advertise alcoholic drinks if more than
25% of its audience is under the age of 18. Effectively you would
stop any advertisements at any football, rugby, cricket or other
spectator sport if that was introduced because of course over
25% of them are under the age of 18—that is why we want
to encourage young people to go and watch and support sport. You
would have to have information at each point of sale saying that
it is illegal to sell alcohol or buy alcohol for those under the
age of 18. Why on earth do you need all of those signs? We all
know it is illegal to sell alcohol under the age of 18. And you
would be required to consult the police every time you had either
a live or recorded event on television. I cannot imagine what
a waste of time that would be. So we are faced, Alan, with being
tarred with the same brush of any sort of alcohol premises. I
clearly believe that we should be making these things targeted.
I think the Department of Health has recently looked at, in particular,
the northwest and perhaps people over the age of 50 who are drinking
too much, and targeting those particular people. If we are going
to take any particular action—and Kevin and I were discussing
this yesterday—it would probably be to introduce minimum
pricing because that is one of the big problems for us all—people
going off and buying it more cheaply in the supermarkets; and
I think we would also be in favour of stopping promotions. So
targeted action against people who are drinking too much—do
not take action against those who are providing premises, do not
drive drinking underground and providing premises where people,
as you have rightly said, Barry, can come and drink safely and
sensibly and under certain restrictions and within a social atmosphere.
Q141 Paul Farrelly: I have read the
suggestions that the CCPR, for example, has suggested that CASC
clubs—and I have been involved in promoting the CASC scheme
here at Parliament and in my local community—should be a
special category identifiable and exempt or the subject of rebates.
We have heard that working men's clubs, for instance, might be
a category. Is this not just a nibbling around the edges trying
to find definitions of establishments that should be treated differently
but that would be subjected to more bureaucracy? Should not the
regime just be overhauled so that if you want to delegate these
decisions to local councils you give them the power to make—their
democratic choice—certain places exempt or not? So that
they have the power to do that without bureaucracy and if they
wish then to bear the cost themselves then it is up to them.
Mrs Simmonds: I think you would
suffer very badly from lack of national consistency. I think that
would be the concern about working with local authorities—some
would do it, some would not. The great thing about the CASC scheme
is a scheme which is completely waterproof—you are either
a CASC and if you are a CASC you have to follow various Treasury
guidance about the charges that you pay, what your charge is in
terms of subscriptions, about various things that you do within
your club—you have to be truly voluntary. It is a system
that is there. I would be much more in favour of doing that. We
are all part of the club premises, so exempt all of those or give
them a reduced fee—you could easily do that within the Licensing
Act. I think giving discretion to local authorities would just
lead to different arrangements around the country. If I could
give you an example where you have a scheme where local authorities
can, on a discretionary basis, reduce rent relief for community
clubs whether a CASC or not. Some do it, some refuse to do it;
it is not a system that works well.
Mr Smyth: You can have a club
on one side of the street getting some relief and the club on
the other side does not.
Mr Slasberg: I am going along
with these guys!
Q142 Paul Farrelly: I am a member
of the Halmerend working men's club in my constituency—it
is one of the clubs I am a member of—but this is one small
rural area. I use the Wood Lane Cricket Club and the Audley football
club amongst many of the small sports clubs in the area. But I
also use regularly the Gresley Arms, which is a village pub, which
would rightly complain if those other places around the area were
treated differently when it was struggling to survive. So there
is a real difficulty. If my local council wanted to say, "Actually
we wanted to promote the existence of village pubs, therefore
we will give the Gresley Arms and other places—not those
pubs in the town which take enough money and quite often are the
cause of antisocial behaviour—an exemption; likewise we
will give Halmerend working men's club an exemption because we
want to promote working men's clubs, and sports clubs because
we think that sport is important as well." So what is wrong
with that?
Mrs Simmonds: I would prefer that
you gave the club premises' certificates the exemption and then
gave them the ability to make that decision about rural pubs,
because if you look at the figures that are coming out of the
BPPA five premises a week are closing and, unfortunately, if you
are not careful it is the wrong premises, the rural premises that
are closing down—it is not necessarily affecting so much
the high street. So, no, I would be very much in favour of that
system working for the rest of them but I would be more in favour
of us having an umbrella encompassing exemption based on the fact
that we are sports and social clubs with club premises' certificates.
Mr Evans: For the record it is actually
five a day.
Q143 Paul Farrelly: There are three
Legislative Reform Orders which are being contemplated now. Are
they just again nibbling at the edges or do you see them as a
vehicle, particularly with the certain as yet to be defined activities
from the regime as a possible way forward?
Mrs Simmonds: One of them would
not really affect us because we do not have designated premises'
supervisors. I think the minor variations would be hugely helpful
and I have already talked about that. The de minimis activities
concerning music which are not yet public exactly what is being
planned, again it would be helpful as far as all of us are concerned.
Q144 Paul Farrelly: Have you given
some thought as to whether now is the appropriate time to revise
this or should the whole regime be looked at in total when the
government finally comes round to the controversial review of
the rateable values around the country?
Mr Slasberg: I think we are getting
to a situation now where certainly within the next year or two
things are going to become very, very critical. I can only speak
for the working men's club and I can see the arguments for the
local pubs and what have you; but from the point of view of the
working men's club, a non-profit making club, I believe it is
critical now that something is done to reverse the trend to use
us as a form of income and to positively encourage the expansion
of our activities. I believe it is a vital social necessity. You
might say it is picking around at the edges—picking around
at the edges maybe to start with, but it is going to need, I think,
a drastic overhaul long-term to get things right. I know that
you cannot do all things at one time but we are moving in the
wrong direction legislatively, I believe—we are becoming
more and more encumbered with rules, which means that we cannot
get the people to manage our clubs because they are afraid. We
have a new penalty regime coming in from the Inland Revenue, which
scares everybody silly, from next year onwards. The legislation
is stopping people from wanting to help in non-profit making clubs,
whilst at the same time demanding that the running of these clubs
are far more detailed and intricate than is necessary, I believe,
to the good running of the clubs and to the good welfare of the
members.
Mrs Simmonds: I would not be in
favour of yet another Licensing Act. I think we have a Licensing
Act that works; I think local authorities and the police make
it absolutely clear that it works. We have to use the powers that
they have in the Act against premises that are causing problems,
and stop every other government department trying to interfere
and making such a huge health issue with a whole series of things
like units, that no one in the public space understands or actually
believes on a daily basis is causing them individual harm. So,
no; do things for the clubs and do things for sports clubs under
the existing Act, and there is plenty of space to be able to do
that. The only thing I would argue about is these Legislative
Reform Orders take for ever.
Q145 Paul Farrelly: One final question
for Mr Smyth. We might have a perception problem really if we
start doing special favours for political clubs like the Maldon
Conservative Association or the Liberal club in the Isle of Wight;
do you agree?
Mr Smyth: There is a good number
of political clubs. Philip Smith behind me is the Secretary of
the Conservative Clubs and he has 1100. There are 2200 working
men's clubs, 750 British Legion; so in total there is a hell of
a lot. You obviously cannot discriminate between one political
club and another but most of these political clubs are still not
for profit.
Mrs Simmonds: As long as you do
it for all political parties!
Chairman: That is all we have for you;
thank you very much.
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