Examination of Witnesses (Questions 108-119)
GENERAL SIR
KEVIN O'DONOGHUE
KCB CBE, DR ANDREW
TYLER AND
REAR ADMIRAL
PAUL LAMBERT
CB
25 NOVEMBER 2008
Q108 Chairman: Good morning. General,
welcome to the second evidence session into Defence Equipment.
I wonder if you could possibly introduce your team, please.
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
Thank you very much; I am delighted to be here. Dr Andrew Tyler
is my Chief Operating Officer in DE&S; and Rear Admiral Paul
Lambert is Capability Manager (Precision Attack), and also Deputy
Chief of Defence Staff Equipment Capability designate.
Q109 Chairman: I am very sorry—I
should have introduced you as CDM. Let us begin by asking about
the question of the equipment that is used in current operational
theatres. What is the state of the examination that you are doing
into the equipment that is used in operational theatres? Have
you produced any terms of reference for that examination? When
do you think that the examination will be completed, because the
impact on that equipment is very heavy at the moment?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
The equipment examination is an examination into the equipment
programme; it is not an examination into the UOR programme.
Q110 Chairman: In our last report
we said in paragraph 56: "We note that the MoD has initiated
a study to assess the impact of current operations on equipment,
such as vehicles, and the subsequent costs of recuperation. We
see the costs of recuperation as a cost of operation to be funded
from the Reserve ... ", and we will come on to the brief
examination into procurement in due course, so this is about a
different issue.
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
I am sorry, I did not understand. What you are saying there as
I understand it is the cost of recuperation. That work is in hand;
it is in hand in the equipment capability area; we are looking
at the costs; we are looking at the timescale; and it is not yet
ready to report. If I may, I will turn to Admiral Lambert.
Rear Admiral Lambert: That is
exactly it. We are still in the middle of looking at this. There
will be a debate on the costs and where those costs fall. We are
in no position yet to say precisely where we are.
Q111 Chairman: Have you an idea of
when you will report on that? Is it a formal inquiry of any sort
which will produce something that might be published?
Rear Admiral Lambert: No, it is
a continuous investigation on the equipments; how quickly they
are being burnt up; and what the issues are on recuperation etc.
It is a continuous process.
Q112 Chairman: Are you concerned
about the general impact on equipment in current operational theatres;
and do you expect capability gaps to arise from the heavy attrition
that is happening to equipment there?
Rear Admiral Lambert: As far as
attrition goes, no, because things that are attrited get replaced
under the Reserve. We are looking very carefully at whether we
are burning up equipments faster in theatre than had been programmed.
I had a look this morning at the air systems, the helicopters
and the aircraft, and they are not being burnt up any faster than
we had predicted. In that particular area, that is not going to
be an issue.
Q113 Chairman: What role does the
Defence Support Group have in this recuperation work?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
The Defence Support Group is constantly involved in recovering
and repairing vehicles as they come back through the system (base
overhauls and so on) as they have always done; but of course the
workload is heavier at the moment. They are also involved in theatre.
They are also involved in BATUS[1]
in Canada where some of the training for theatre takes place.
They will almost certainly be involved in whatever recuperation
process goes on. They are the UK's experts in recovery and recuperation
of armoured vehicles.
Q114 Chairman: Is the Treasury funding
that recuperation work out of the Reserve, or is its something
that falls on the MoD's main budget?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
I do not think we have discussed that yet. I can see it being
quite difficult to discuss. Until we know the costs—which
we do not yet—it is quite difficult to have a discussion
about who is going to pay for it. We are not there yet.
Dr Tyler: One of the difficulties
intrinsically in being in enduring operations is that you have
got a bit of a moving target here, because you are using different
equipments at different times in the way that the theatre threat
changes for different equipments into theatre. We have got a constant
programme obviously of responding to theatres needs, so you cannot
be specific at any particular point in time about exactly what
the sort of volume, type, scale and nature of that recuperation
is going to be. That is why any look at this has got to be on
a continuous basis. I would expect the discussions with Treasury
would also be on a similar basis.
Q115 Chairman: Are you not able to
relax into the knowledge that the Government normally funds the
costs of operations from the Reserve? Is this not an ordinary
cost of operation?
Dr Tyler: I think that is a debate
that is ongoing. We have been very focussed up until this point
on ensuring that we are having the right equipment in theatre,
and that the Treasury are meeting their commitments to us in terms
of funding the additional cost of current operations. That has
been the focus hitherto.
Q116 Chairman: Why is that a debate?
Dr Tyler: It has not been a debate
to date, but I think going forward, when we are talking about
recuperation, which is intrinsically a longer-term activity, then
I think that debate will have to continue.
Q117 Chairman: From the sound of
things, you are not confident that the costs of recuperation will
automatically be met from a contingency Reserve?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
No, that is correct, but then I do not know yet what the costs
of recuperation are going to be.
Q118 Chairman: We understand that.
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
It is difficult to have a debate as to where the costs should
lie when you do not know what the costs are.
Q119 Chairman: Is it not a matter
of principle that operations are covered by the contingency Reserve?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
That is some operations—most operations—operations
not part of the contingency, yes, you are right.
1 British Army Training Unit Suffield Back
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