Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
100-119)
RT HON
BOB AINSWORTH
MP, ADMIRAL LORD
WEST OF
SPITHEAD GCB DSC, MR
JON DAY
CBE, BRIGADIER CHIP
CHAPMAN, MS
GILLIAN MCGREGOR
AND MS
CHLOE SQUIRES
21 OCTOBER 2008
Q100 Mr Crausby: Our visit to the
Defence Academy last week, I think, provoked us into wanting to
ensure that we get full value from the Defence Academy. Whilst
I know that it must be very difficult for you to be specific about
the training that the Armed Forces undertake for military assistance
with the civil authorities, I think what we wanted to draw out
really today was to ensure that that is going on and to ask broader
questions, such as, is there any doctrinal training going on,
for example?
Brigadier Chapman: We have a defined
doctrine which is out to all government departments, which is
called "Operations in the UK: Defence Contribution to Resilience—JDP-02",
which actually was only republished last year, as I think I am
right in saying that it is the second edition. That goes through
all the gamut of military support to the military and civil authorities,
including MACP, MACD and military aid to the civil communities.
Q101 Mr Crausby: Can you tell us
in broad terms what role the Defence Academy plays in this regard
with both the MoD and the Government, but broadly? I know it is
very difficult for you to go into specifics, but we are interested,
as I say, to ensure that we take full advantage of the facilities
there.
Brigadier Chapman: The actual
doctrinal publication is produced by the Defence Academy through
the Director General of Developments, Concepts and Doctrine, so
they are plugged in with any developments in this area.
Q102 John Smith: We were, Mr Chairman,
as you know, very impressed by what we witnessed at the Defence
Academy last week, and I know the Minister is very familiar with
what is going on there. I wonder, do you see a greater role that
could be played by that Academy in the training of not just military
personnel to support civil authorities, but in the training of
civil authorities and in fact possibly training the Cabinet? I
do not think it would be a bad idea, from our experience last
week, to have the Cabinet down once or twice a year and, instead
of going to Chequers, perhaps they could go to the Defence Academy
and co-ordinate some of this strategy.
Mr Ainsworth: You were really
impressed, but have you ever been to Chequers, I do not know!
Q103 John Smith: I used to work there.
Mr Ainsworth: The things that
go on at Shrivenham are not exclusively defence; there are a lot
of cross-government courses and training that is made available
from the Defence Academy to other government departments. There
is a course that I spoke of while you were there which was not
exclusively defence, but people from other government departments
were there at the time participating in the same courses as military
personnel and civilians from the Ministry of Defence.
Q104 Chairman: But I would echo what
John Smith says, that a half day spent at Shrivenham by the entire
Cabinet would pay absolute dividends for the future of the country,
and I would suggest that is something you should be seriously
considering.
Lord West of Spithead: I am all
for more military training for everybody, but I think it is just
worth emphasising that an awful lot of these issues that we are
talking about, the prime responders and the people who are primarily
responsible for acting on them are other government departments
and agencies. Taking the resilience area, for example, since the
Civil Contingencies Act, there is no doubt a lot has been done
there in terms of getting acts together and being able to react
to these things, and there are large numbers of people. We have
something in the region of, if you count PCSOs and everything
else, 140/150,000 police in this country, then one looks at the
numbers in the military and then we have got 52,000 in the fire
brigades. The numbers involved and the responsibilities do lie
with these other groups and, as I say, since the Civil Contingencies
Act and our National Capabilities Programme, I think we are getting
better and better at responding. When one needs the military,
apart from some very niche things, if something goes dramatically
worse, then there are mechanisms for actually achieving that,
but, as my colleague says, there are certain things like MCT and
certain things like the air capability which of course could not
be provided by anyone other than the military itself.
Mr Havard: One component we saw there
was—is it called the Advanced Research Group—ARAG.
To me, it is the Advanced Research Group.
Mr Holloway: And Assessment Group.
Mr Havard: Somebody is doing research
and this research, whether it is stabilisation in Afghanistan,
it is about resilience, it is about all of the various components
of national security, and it is something that is under pressure,
I believe, in terms of funding every year. It is one of those
sorts of things where research is always thought to be not very
useful until you need it of course and then nobody has been doing
it. It just seems to me that it is a very valuable resource and
it is maybe something which ought to be supplemented and embellished
rather than under threat through its funding because it is the
one place that brings together all the component parts.
Chairman: Well, Minister, you have heard
our plug for your establishment.
Q105 Mr Borrow: We have had mention
earlier in the proceedings of the role of Commander-in-Chief,
Land and the support for civilian authorities, and there are a
few questions that I had earmarked to ask you and some of them
we may have touched on, but I will just run through them and perhaps
get a response, Minister, to those issues. Firstly, could you
outline briefly how the provision of military aid is made to the
civilian authorities and what provision the MoD makes for emergencies
in the UK? In what sort of situations would the civilian authorities
be likely to request support from the Armed Forces and how is
that decision made as to whether or not that support is given?
Finally, are there specific capabilities which you have earmarked
for supporting the civilian authorities? I think, Minister, you
mentioned one situation and I was not quite sure whether that
meant that you could not tell us about the rest or whether there
was a wider range of specific capabilities which you could bring
into the public domain at this point in time.
Mr Ainsworth: There are two broad
categories of capabilities which we maintain and one, I would
say, is niche capabilities which other people generally cannot
provide, and that is a full range from the air component through
to maritime counterterrorism, Special Forces' capabilities, things
that we cannot go into in detail, but they are there and the MoD
is the provider, and then there is augmentation capability as
well. Generally speaking, that is pulled together through the
Commander-in-Chief, Land and the regional structure. Now, that
can be provided by whatever is available to suit the purpose at
the time. Sometimes it is Reserves and sometimes it is Regular
Forces to meet the needs of the particular request. All of those
are approved at ministerial level. All of them are charged against
the Department which is requesting the assistance because they
are the people who actually hold the responsibility, not the MoD,
in the first place. If there is a training gain to the MoD in
conducting a particular operation, then we take that into account
in the charges that we make, but that is the broad structure.
I do not know whether Jon might want to put any more on that.
Mr Day: I think, Chip, you can
go through the details.
Brigadier Chapman: This really
comes into three areas. That we provide military aid to the civil
authorities is the broad-brush one and of course within the UK
you have civil powers, which we support, by the government departments,
the agencies, etc. I think your question is specific to the civil
communities and, at the high end of that, we have Military Aid
to the Civil Authorities, Category A, which is when there is a
threat to life. When there is a threat to life, we would not charge
and the Commander-in-Chief, Land, as the standing joint commander,
would force-generate from any available Forces outside of the
guaranteed niche capability to bring the capability to bear. For
example, in the Gloucestershire floods last year when we provided
1,026 people to help the civil community in that circumstance,
that was force-generated from SJC Land from the Regular and Reserve
Force structure without any need to caveat defence outputs elsewhere
in the world or in the UK within the basket of niche capabilities
which are guaranteed 24/7, 365 for the high-end counterterrorist
aspects or certain other guaranteed capabilities that we bring
to bear.
Mr Day: If it would be helpful,
we can provide you with examples of the kinds of areas of support
we have provided in recent years, both on an unclassified basis
and on a classified basis as well.
Chairman: Yes, both of those would be
helpful, thank you.
Q106 Mr Borrow: Can I just follow
up and ask you, Minister, in relation to the sort of support that
would be available in terms of helicopters over the next couple
of years, are there any changes likely in that sort of support
that can be provided in the UK to civilian authorities from helicopters
were circumstances to arise when that request could be made?
Mr Ainsworth: Well, we have the
search and rescue capability and we have also got a training capability
constantly available in the UK which could be recharged.
Brigadier Chapman: It is worth
saying that of course one of the few places where we do have a
lead government department responsibility is in the provision
of search and air rescue, and the number of places I do not think
is going to rise in the future, and of course they are of extremely
high readiness every day of the year to help the civil community.
Of course in the Gloucestershire floods last year, that was the
biggest search and rescue used in the UK, I think, since the Second
World War.
Q107 Mr Borrow: Are there any plans
to change that capability in terms of the UK as against the capability
that is available in theatre?
Brigadier Chapman: It is different
with a different series of aircraft; they are mutually exclusive.
Mr Ainsworth: Search and rescue
aircraft do not leave the UK, they are permanently tasked in the
UK, but in Gloucestershire we used more than just search and rescue
helicopters. We had Chinooks active in the area and the other
helicopters which were just available and within the UK that we
put to task in order to assist.
Q108 Mr Borrow: Are there any changes
proposed in terms of the provision that would be available were
those circumstances to arise again?
Mr Ainsworth: Specifically on
helicopters, we have to maintain a helicopter force in the UK
overwhelmingly for training purposes, and that is not going to
alter. It is not just a case of your helicopter capability out
in theatre, it is not judged by how many frames you can get out
in theatre, but it is trained crews that you can get out in theatre
that is often the pinchpoint, so you have to have that capability
back in the UK.
Q109 Mr Borrow: So as to the level
of helicopter support that would be available in 18 months' time,
were an emergency similar to the floods that took place in Gloucestershire
last year to happen, we would be able to mobilise the same number
of helicopters as were available to be mobilised in 2007?
Mr Ainsworth: I know of no reason
why we should not be able to.
Chairman: I am sure you will find that
we have further questions to ask on that sort of thing in due
course.
Q110 Mr Holloway: Admiral, if there
were a series of big, white flashes in a provincial town or city
or in London and there were thousands of dead and injured, can
you give us just a flavour of the sorts of things that would happen
in the aftermath in terms of all that you have been putting together?
Lord West of Spithead: Sorry,
do you mean CBRN-type?
Q111 Mr Holloway: Or whatever, but
something with many thousands of dead and injured, 10,000, say.
What sort of things would come in?
Lord West of Spithead: Well, the
initial reactions, as I say, will be taken by the prime authorities,
so it will be the police, fire brigade and ambulance which will
take the initial actions. Very quickly, if it is a huge thing,
it will become clear that they might need extra resources for
cordons or whatever it might be, or, if it is a CBRN-type thing,
actually for assistance in terms of work with contaminated things,
things like that. Then, just digressing down that route, we have
done some really good work there with defence and we have a police
unit down at Winterbourne Gunner who work very closely and they
do lots of exercises for gold, silver and bronze commanders and
at Ryton they do similar work, so again over the last few months
there has been a huge amount of work there on preparedness for
those sorts of things. We would then have to ask for help from
the MoD in terms of a MACP request or whatever.
Q112 Chairman: Sorry, can you translate
that please?
Lord West of Spithead: That is
Military Aid to the Civil Power. COBR obviously would be established
and at COBR would be MoD, plus all the various people, and it
would become very apparent that this was a very major thing. There
would be demands from the people who are set up to respond that
they needed extra resources and those bits would come in. Now,
initially they might well think, "Well, we can do this with
extra resources and police from other constabularies", things
like that, but then they might rapidly say, "We need actually
MoD assistance, we need extra resources", as I say, for cordons,
a helicopter, or whatever it might be.
Q113 Mr Holloway: Do you, for example,
have a system in place whereby you can suddenly generate beds
for 5,000 seriously injured people across the country or 10,000?
Lord West of Spithead: I do not
know the exact numbers, but the Department of Health have in place
plans to take major numbers of casualties, and this is part of
what we do across the board, that we push the departments that
they have to put in various contingency plans, and it applies
similarly to pandemic flu, it applies to dealing with dead bodies
from pandemics. All of these things have to be looked at by that
appropriate department to set in place plans and have those sitting
there to action, and we do then exercise those as paper exercises
and also some of them we exercise as actually people—
Q114 Mr Holloway: But do you have
a rough idea of how many beds you could generate over a very short
period of time for a very, very large number of civilians?
Lord West of Spithead: I have
to say, I honestly do not, and it would be the Department of Health
who would be able to tell you that very rapidly because they have
things. For example, if a major, wide-bodied jet lands and hits
London, there are things in place for what we do if that happens,
and one would expect that there would be things in place for that,
but I cannot give you a precise answer to that, I am afraid.
Q115 Mr Jenkin: Just on this helicopters
point, I represent an east of England constituency which is liable
to flooding, coastal flooding, and in 1953 there were very serious
floods and a great many people drowned, but, in these days of
helicopters, one hopes the helicopters would be available and,
as a topical subject, one would hope they would have winches because,
in lifting people to safety from a flooded area, you require a
winch in your helicopters. Is that something which is being addressed?
Mr Ainsworth: There are winches
widely available in the helicopter fleet and all of our helicopters
in Afghanistan are now fitted with—
Q116 Mr Jenkin: And on the training
helicopters that would be deployed in an emergency?
Mr Ainsworth: I cannot say that
every training helicopter in the United Kingdom is fitted with
a winch, no, I cannot say that. There are not only military helicopters
available, but there are a lot of helicopters available through
all kinds of different organisations in the United Kingdom in
the way that there was not a generation ago.
Q117 Chairman: Again, we will come
back to that in due course.
Mr Ainsworth: All the search and
rescue helicopters have got winches of course.
Lord West of Spithead: If I could
just say to Bernard and his very valid question about flooding,
what is a step forward is that this is now actually identified
in the National Security Strategy as an issue. That is why I say
this is a step forward and this means that, as it is in there,
these will have to be addressed because the National Security
Strategy will sit there and it will affect all those departments
because, as it gets more comprehensive, it will start putting
a weighting on things and people will have to say, "Right,
we've got to do something about that", and it will force
people to do things, so I think it is a good thing.
John Smith: I do not think we should
give the impression that there is general concern about the ability
to respond to civil disasters. We had a major civil disaster exercise
in my constituency recently in Barry with an airliner crashing
into the big number one dock, involving all the services, and,
I have to say, it was a huge success and the professionalism displayed
by both civilian, voluntary and professional military personnel
was exceptional. Why they chose Barry, I am not sure, Mr Chairman.
I think it was to protect the next episode of Gavin and Stacey!
It was a very successful exercise.
Chairman: Another tribute!
Q118 Mr Holloway: Do you have groups
of people who sit around working up potential scenarios of things
that terrorists might do, areas that are vulnerable?
Lord West of Spithead: What you
are talking about here is "red-teaming".
Q119 Mr Holloway: Yes.
Lord West of Spithead: JTAC do
a small amount of that, but of course do very good analysis of
the threat. It is a very good point, we do not have red teams
set up specifically. We do task within the OSCT and we say, "Right,
what ifs, what ifs, what ifs", and I will not go into some
of the `what ifs' because it might tell, but I can give you one
`what if'. For example, as we have done a very good job of melting
down our own financial systems in the world, if I were an enemy,
I would think, "How could I actually help them along the
route?" so I said, "I want a `what if' for the things
they might do", and that work is going on, and they have
come up with various options. Is that the sort of thing you mean,
Adam?
Mr Holloway: Well, at a more sort of
tactical level. Do you have people who sit around dreaming how
you might blow up an airliner by putting different chemicals together?
Chairman: We do not want to go into examples,
but do you?
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