Russia: a new confrontation? - Defence Committee Contents


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 320-339)

21 APRIL 2009 RT HON BARONESS TAYLOR OF BOLTON, GROUP CAPTAIN MALCOLM CRAYFORD, MS GLORIA CRAIG,   RT HON CAROLINE FLINT MP, MR NICK PICKARD AND MR JUSTIN MCKENZIE SMITH

  Q320  Linda Gilroy: In terms of the NATO-Russia Council and that kind of strategic discussion, your answer to my earlier questions suggests that it could do more and better in that respect?

  Baroness Taylor of Bolton: It could do more in terms of scope, but they have to be discussions that acknowledge the basic principles that underpin the organisation.

  Q321  Linda Gilroy: Which are as much in NATO as in OSCE to do with human rights, democracy and governance issues?

  Baroness Taylor of Bolton: And acknowledgement of international law. Those are the barriers at the moment.

  Q322  Robert Key: Minister, I want to turn to Article 5 issues, and the defence of NATO members. It is quite clear that what happened in August of last year in Georgia set alarm bells ringing right across NATO particularly in the Baltic states. It is something of an irony that one of the countries that feels most affected by this, Estonia, is one of our very best allies, is fighting alongside us in Afghanistan and pro rata is taking as many injuries and deaths as we are. That is a record of which they can be very proud. We wish many more NATO members would take their obligations as seriously because most of them do not. The Secretary of State for Defence said in a written ministerial statement on 30 March, that the proposal for a NATO Allied Solidarity Force would "be taken forward in the wider work of the NATO response force". We were told on the website AlertNet that there would be 3,000 troops involved. Can you confirm that that sort of number is what the Secretary of State has in mind?

  Baroness Taylor of Bolton: As the Allied Solidarity Force, the actual number being talked about is 1,500 in strength.

  Q323  Robert Key: Is that 1,500 in a permanent state of readiness or 1,500 in training?

  Baroness Taylor of Bolton: This is still an idea and it has not gone through all of its stages. You referred to the impact of Georgia on some of the other countries. Your analysis is right; it has concerned a great number of them quite significantly. You mentioned Estonia and you rightly said that it was one of our best allies. It is working very successfully with us in Afghanistan and we are very pleased to be working so closely with them. We wish that some of the other NATO countries would perform as well as Estonia, but the proposal on the Allied Solidarity Force is basically one of reassurance to those countries that are concerned about being on the borders and feel that Article 4 or 5 is important to them. It is important to remember that NATO has never been offensive and wants to reassure its members that it understands their concerns and has changed very significantly. Since 9/11, our main threats have been very external, asymmetric, terrorism and issues of that kind. Therefore, when we look at NATO and how it has to respond, we have to look at more expeditionary approaches to our own needs and protection. That in itself has caused some countries to be concerned about Article 5 protection. Therefore, I think it is right that we look to reassure them. The new approach in the form of the Allied Solidarity Force is not against any specific potential threat; it is there as an act of reassurance and solidarity. That is why it has been suggested. It has been discussed at some stage but not in fantastic detail as yet. It is a relatively recent proposal and one that so far has had a good reception but the detail must still be worked out.

  Q324  Robert Key: Reuters has said that the NATO Secretary-General will put this to Ministers in June. Is that right?

  Baroness Taylor of Bolton: The Supreme Allied Commander Europe will do that.

  Q325  Robert Key: If it is approved by Ministers and we have this standing arrangement in future there would be explicit contingency plans to deploy that force if necessary in the case of any military action by Russia against NATO members. Is that a reasonable assumption?

  Baroness Taylor of Bolton: You are saying "by Russia".

  Q326  Robert Key: Yes—or anybody else.

  Baroness Taylor of Bolton: It is not aimed specifically at Russia; it is anybody.

  Q327  Robert Key: Are there any NATO contingency plans for the defence of non-NATO members as well? What would happen if there was another Georgia?

  Baroness Taylor of Bolton: That begs the question whether people would behave provocatively and disproportionately. In one sense another Georgia is not just an issue for NATO but for the United Nations and every international organisation. International organisations have responsibilities as well as limitations, but it would not be a matter simply for NATO.

  Q328  Mr Havard: To be clear about the Allied Solidarity Force of 1,500 people—which will pack a huge punch against Russia—it seems to me that it is as much a political force as a military utility except in pretty small conflicts, frankly. It may be a political manoeuvre and maybe a successful one in terms of engaging Russia in taking a better attitude to a number of things; and it may reassure some of the other Eastern European states, but beyond that that is it.

  Baroness Taylor of Bolton: There is a lot of truth in that.

  Q329  Mr Havard: It need not frighten the Russian bear too much.

  Baroness Taylor of Bolton: It is a sign of how you would make it clear at a very early stage in any potential confrontation that there was a wide range of international players willing to take on an issue and show their solidarity on any particular point.

  Q330  Mr Havard: But it is as much a political commitment as a military one?

  Group Captain Crayford: You are right. Our proposal is for a small, rapidly deployable task force of 1,500 personnel—within the wider NATO Response Force.

  Baroness Taylor of Bolton: With flags from lots of different members.

  Group Captain Crayford: They would be dedicated to Article 4 and 5, but with essentially a limited political task.

  Q331  Chairman: What is the NATO Rapid Reaction Force for?

  Ms Craig: This would be part of the NATO Response Force.

  Q332  Chairman: Has the NATO Rapid Reaction Force ever been deployed?

  Ms Craig: Not in anger; but it was deployed to Pakistan to help with earthquake relief in 2005.

  Q333  Chairman: Have not the problems of the NATO Rapid Reaction Force been caused by things like the need to refer any deployment the Bundestag in Germany for example? Would this be any different? Why do we create a new organisation to do something that an existing organisation is already failing to do?

  Baroness Taylor of Bolton: This is a sub-role of all of that and it is something that potentially would be more acceptable all round. Part of the problem of NATO and the EU is to try to get the structures that underpins all these things. You can spend a lot of time looking at what the structure should be but when you have a situation you have to respond. Many people are very surprised at the speed with which Operation Atalanta got under way because there were not the structures to create it. Yet where there was political will it was possible to get that operation moving quickly. I believe that that is typical of a lot of the institutional problems. Where there is the political will very often things can happen.

  Q334  Chairman: Is it not a problem that every time something difficult like Georgia happens, we look at the idea of battle groups and realise that they do not really take off. We look at the idea of the NATO Rapid Reaction Force and realise that that does not take off, so we create a new structure that itself is unlikely to take off because it is easier and simpler to resort to the idea that something bad has happened and so we should create a new structure than take a political decision within a large number of countries and do something?

  Baroness Taylor of Bolton: I think that what I have just said about piracy proves that if there is political will, you can take decisions very quickly.

  Q335  Chairman: So, the creation of a structure was not particularly helpful?

  Baroness Taylor of Bolton: Yes; we just responded quicker.

  Q336  Mr Havard: To be clear, the Allied Solidarity Force is part of a sub-unit of the Rapid Reaction Force. How does that work in terms of the commitments that are made to put people into it?

  Group Captain Crayford: The UK proposal at this stage, which has gone forward to SACEUR for consideration as part of his wider review of the NATO Response Force—his options will be delivered to the defence ministers in June. Our proposal would form part of the existing NATO Response Force ceilings but dedicated to an Article 4/5 role, to allow the remainder of the NATO Response Force to deal with non-Article 5 crises management-type operations.

  Q337  Mr Havard: So, the UK's commitment of numbers of people to the Rapid Reaction Force will be no different because of this proposal from what it was before?

  Group Captain Crayford: That is correct.

  Mr Pickard: To answer both questions, part of the aim of this is to assist the deployability of the NATO response force because some of the political arguments used in the past have been that we cannot deploy the NRF because it is required at home. Making a small part of the NRF specifically relevant to the Article 5 argument allows us to deploy the rest of the NRF where necessary and counter some of those arguments other nations have made.

  Q338  Chairman: So, the Deployable Response Force will now be down to 1,500 people?

  Baroness Taylor of Bolton: No; the deployable people ring-fenced under Article 5 will be that number.

  Q339  Mr Havard: Of the NATO Rapid Reaction Force?

  Baroness Taylor of Bolton: The rest will be available.

  Chairman: The Russians will really worry, will they not?



 
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