Examination of Witnesses (Questions 241
- 259)
WEDNESDAY 1 APRIL 2009
PROFESSOR CHRIS
GASKELL, DAME
DEIRDRE HUTTON
AND PROFESSOR
SIR MICHAEL
RAWLINS
Chairman: Good morning. Could I welcome
our three extremely distinguished witnesses to the inquiry this
morning, Putting Science and Engineering at the Heart of Government,
looking particularly at how the Government receives independent
scientific advice to deal with its policy. We have before us Dame
Deirdre Hutton, the Chairman of the Food Standards Agency—welcome
to you Dame Deirdre, an old friend of the previous committee but
I think the first time you have been before the new DIUSS Committee—Professor
Chris Gaskell, the Chief of the Science Advisory Council for Defra—welcome
to you again—and, by no means last, Sir Michael Rawlins,
the former Chair of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs
and current Chairman of the National Institute for Health and
Clinical Excellence, but we are discussing principally your role
as the former Chair of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs,
to put that on the record, and I will rule out any other questions
to you other than in that particular area. We have a number of
people who wish to declare interests.
Mr Boswell: Chairman, I think, for completeness,
I should declare my interest as a former minister at MAFF, as
the precursor of Defra, and, indeed, before that as a special
advisor to MAFF and, indeed, I am still a member of the old comrades
association of that joint body.
Q241 Chairman: We will move on. The
interest for the committee this morning is that we have three
witnesses who come from different advisory organisations to the
Government. We are trying to get a feel. I wonder if we could
ask each of you, starting with you, Dame Deirdre, to give us a
couple of minutes as to how you would describe your remit and
who do you report to, very briefly.
Dame Deirdre Hutton: Thank you
very much indeed, Chairman, and also thank you to the committee
for inviting me. The remit of the Food Standards Agency is very
broad. The legislation states it as the duty to protect public
health from risks which may arise in connection with the consumption
of food and otherwise protect the interests of consumers in relation
to food. So it is a very, very broad remit that covers more or
less anything that is in food that either is produced or eaten.
We are an independent government department—we do not have
a minister; instead we have a board and a chair who are appointed
by Nolan rules -we operate in a completely open and transparent
way and we are accountable to Parliament through, but not to,
ministers at the Department of Health.
Q242 Chairman: In terms of reporting
to Parliament, how does that happen other than your written reports?
We clearly have your latest one before us.
Dame Deirdre Hutton: Largely,
in formal terms, the written report is how that accountability
is expressed to Parliament, although, clearly, appearing before
select committees is also a very important part of that accountability,
but in the broadest sense, I would say, from the fact that everything
we do, every piece of research, every decision we make, is put
into the public domain, that is another very important way of
expressing that accountability.
Q243 Chairman: How often do you appear
before select committees? Is it usually the Health Committee?
Dame Deirdre Hutton: Certainly
the Health Committee, House of Lords committees as well—Science
and Technology Committees, sometimes Defra—I appeared in
front of the Efra Committee recently—not, however, a very
great deal, but we are, of course, at your disposal when you wish
to call us.
Q244 Chairman: Thank you very much
indeed. Professor Gaskell.
Professor Gaskell: Thank you,
and thank you, too, for the invitation to come. This is the first
time, I think, Defra's SAC has been in front a select committee
and I am glad of the opportunity. The Council was created in 2004
and its function is to advise and challenge Defra, through the
Chief Scientific Adviser, on the quality and appropriateness of
the science base and the science evidence that Defra is using.
We are independent; I do not think I would say fiercely independent.
We are constructed and appointed under Nolan rules; we are all
independent of Defra; we publish all our proceedings; all our
recommendations and advice to the CSA (Chief Scientific Adviser)
are put on the web. We hold one public meeting a year and we are
there to be called to account whenever and by whomever is appropriate.
Q245 Chairman: Do you think you are
an effective organisation?
Professor Gaskell: I think we
are. It is an evolving system. The whole system of CSAs and SACs
within government is evolving, and you will have had, or have
access to, the advice from OST, for example, on codes of practice
to the Science Advisory Council, and we contributed quite significantly,
I think, to that because we had, in Defra, as much experience
as anybody of this type of independent advice and challenge. We
seek to look at our effectiveness in two ways. We actually have
audited, and are due to so do again, but we did a couple of years
ago audit the response of Defra to all our recommendations and
look and see whether they were accepted, accepted in principle,
which is sometimes a euphemism, or rejected.
Q246 Chairman: We know the feeling.
Professor Gaskell: You know the
feeling. The vast majority were accepted, and we follow that up;
we follow up how that has been put into place. So that is one
way in which we judge our effectiveness; I think that is the major
way in which we judge our effectiveness.
Professor Sir Michael Rawlins:
I am here as the former Chairman of the ACMD, but I have been
a member of the government Scientific Advisory Committee since
1979, so I bring quite a bit of experience, and I have the scars
as a consequence. The ACMD, which I chaired for ten years, is
set up under the Misuse of Drugs Act to advise the Home Secretary,
and other government departments, on a broad range of matters
related to substance misuse. It is a large council. Its members
are now appointed under Nolan arrangements. In the old days they
just emerged, but now it is done under Nolan arrangements, and
over the last few years it has become much more open and transparent.
Under my chairmanship, we started meeting in public, which we
had not done before, and I think meeting in public is very important.
The FSA took the lead in this when John Krebs was Chairman, right
from the very beginning, and I learnt a lot from him about his
experience and I introduced the same measures in both NICE and
the ACMD.
Q247 Chairman: You report directly
to the Home Secretary, do you?
Professor Sir Michael Rawlinsl:
Yes.
Q248 Dr Gibson: I will ask Professor
Gaskell and Professor Rawlins: how often do you appear on Radio
4?
Professor Gaskell: This week?
Q249 Dr Gibson: This week. Quite
often?
Professor Gaskell: Sometimes,
but not always as Chairman of the Defra SAC.
Q250 Dr Gibson: But you have been
its Chairman.
Professor Gaskell: I have commented
as Chairman.
Q251 Dr Gibson: And I know you have,
Professor Rawlins.
Professor Sir Michael Rawlins:
Yes, Boxing Day was my last appearance on Radio 4 on The Today
Programme.
Q252 Dr Gibson: I ask that question
because the follow up question is: when you go on Radio 4 do you
make contact at all with any government department, civil servants?
Does a minister phone you up and say, "Be careful or else"?
Professor Sir Michael Rawlins:
I have never had a minister phone me up before going on The
Today Programme.
Q253 Dr Gibson: After?
Professor Sir Michael Rawlins:
No, I cannot recall one after. Sometimes, of course, the whole
thing is set up by the communications or press office of the Home
Office or the Minister.
Q254 Dr Gibson: But are you aware
when you go on Radio 4 that you might be being listened to by
Downing Street and others—
Professor Sir Michael Rawlins:
Oh, yes.
Q255 Dr Gibson: —and if you
get it wrong, you will get hammered?
Professor Sir Michael Rawlins:
Of course.
Q256 Dr Gibson: You might even lose
your job.
Professor Sir Michael Rawlins:
Of course, yes.
Q257 Dr Gibson: You are not really
independent in than sense, are you?
Professor Sir Michael Rawlins:
Well, anything we do we could get it wrong and get hammered. There
is no question about that. The members and the Chairman can say
the wrong thing and say such a dreadfully wrong thing in public
that the Government and the electorate and people might lose confidence
in you.
Q258 Dr Gibson: I only ask because
the word "independent" slips out quite easily. Dame
Deirdre did say in the definition that the board and chair were
separate and independent. What I am trying to prove is that you
are not exactly 100% independent, you are part and parcel of a
government machine?
Professor Sir Michael Rawlins:
I think the important bit to me for the independence is not the
fact that the secretariat is provided by the Government, government
money and all that sort of thing, it is really about being free
to provide government with the views that you believe are the
right ones based on the evidence before you.
Q259 Dr Gibson: Have you had any
view suppressed by government, or anybody else, who said, "You
must not say that. It is a danger to the nation"? Have MI5
ever been on to you, or MI6?
Professor Sir Michael Rawlins:
Not that I am aware of.
Dr Gibson: Is there a click when you
pick your phone up?
Dr Harris: You have never been flown
to Morocco!
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