Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200
- 219)
MONDAY 9 FEBRUARY 2009
CARRIE DONAGHY,
RICKY CHOTAI,
LUCY HOPKINS,
ARNOLD SARFO-KANTANKA
AND JAMES
WILLIAMSON
Q200 Mr Boswell: So other people
are not doing as much as you are probably?
Ms Hopkins: Well, for the law
obviously it's a different type of learning than it is with graphics.
We've got 9.00 to 5.00, obviously a lot of research and that kind
of thing, but obviously I've got no time for a job with that as
well.
Q201 Mr Boswell: Just a final point
because you have referred to the fact that you manager of the
campus. How much time can you spend on that as well and does it
actually improve your personal development as well as the work
you do as a student?
Ms Hopkins: I think the work I
do as a student—the work I do outside of being a student—is
probably far much more important than what I can get with my degree
because so many people—there's about 40 people doing my
degree, graphic design, and there are so many people wanting to
be a graphic designer and the fact that I've done this stuff as
well adds so much more to my c.v. than anything else.
Q202 Mr Boswell: So it gives you
an edge, does it?
Ms Hopkins: Definitely.
Q203 Dr Iddon: How important do you
think it is for a lecturer also to be involved in research, or
if not research certainly scholarship? Can I start with Arnold?
Do you think if one of your lecturers is closely involved in research,
runs a research group, it betters their teaching?
Mr Sarfo-Kantanka: I would like
to think so, but I still would like to have that relationship
with the lecturers. I tell a lot of students who are in the year
below me that you've got to build up a relationship. They're not
professors and doctors for no reason. They've got a wealth of
knowledge that you need to leech off to an extent because really
and truly I'm in my final year now and if a lecturer is off doing
research all of the time but they're not engaging with the student,
then that puts me at a bit of a disadvantage because I need to
read around the topics, I need to read around the modules -
Q204 Dr Iddon: Does that happen a
lot, Arnold, the lecturers going AWOL when they should be teaching
you?
Mr Sarfo-Kantanka: I cannot speak
for everyone, but I've seen it in cases—not in my university
but in other universities where that has happened and I think
that's an issue which might need to be addressed.
Q205 Dr Iddon: Okay. Ricky, how about
Salford, where I used to teach incidentally, so be careful?
Mr Chotai: I think if you posed
that question regarding research to a lot of students in Salford
University they obviously wouldn't have a clue what you're talking
about. I think telling people about research—it just isn't
out there in Salford. I think the only reason I know personally
about research in university is that my Dad's a lecturer at Lancaster!
I know also there's a lot of student liaison work within the schools,
within the faculties. I think that's why I know about it. I think
if you asked one of my colleagues on business and management they
wouldn't be aware of anything about the research going on in the
business school, they wouldn't have an idea of figures or anything
like that. I think it's important, to go back to your original
question.
Q206 Dr Iddon: I am sorry for rushing
you. Lucy?
Ms Hopkins: I think it's very
important. I like to think that when I'm having a lecture it's
not the same lecture that he or she has been teaching for the
last ten years. I like to know that it's updated, that they're
taking an interest in what they're teaching us, carrying on, and
that I'm learning something that's up to date and that I can quote
my lectures in my essays. I think that's very important.
Mr Williamson: I agree with what
you've just said, but it depends on the subjects as well to an
extent. I mean, I do German and there is very little point in
reading and talking with the sort of linguistics and really deep
research into the linguistics. All one really needs to learn is
how to speak German. That's important, too, having content, but
in my own department, politics, it's incredibly valuable to learn
the things that specific lecturers have interests in and you get
such a broad knowledge.
Q207 Dr Iddon: Carrie, you are a
lawyer. It must be important in your area?
Ms Donaghy: I think it's vital
that they do. I think it obviously changes all the time so they
constantly need to be updating and constantly need to be researching,
and that does happen. I see it happening.
Q208 Dr Iddon: Let me switch the
questioning now to whether first class degrees from different
universities are the same. I was disappointed with the NUS answer,
I will tell you. They were giving a perception that I did not
think the NUS would give. Do you agree with it? I think you all
heard the NUS guys tell us about the quality of degrees from different
universities and two of you at least at this end of the table
have said there is a difference in degrees between universities.
Let me start, therefore, with Carrie. Do you have a different
opinion?
Ms Donaghy: I think if you compare
my degree with somewhere like Cambridge, I think if someone looked
a lot deeper into the actual degree they would see that—I'm
going to make a political point here, but they would see that
my course is just as good. I don't think employers see that. I
think if they looked at my course, if they saw the work that we
actually do, then I think -
Q209 Dr Iddon: I appreciate your
course is good, but do you think it is comparable right across
the university spectrum, or do we have this football league I
described earlier?
Ms Donaghy: No, I don't think
it's the same. I don't think it's a level playing field at all.
Mr Williamson: I think it's impossible
for it to be the same, just on the basis that it's not centrally
marked. It's not like the A-levels where it's supposed to be pretty
much on the same level. But as to whether it's a straight football
league, of course it can't be like that because it's sort of individual
departments are much better than other individual departments.
But whether it should be the same, I'm not sure.
Ms Hopkins: Just so that I don't
repeat everybody else, I find it very annoying that in terms of
art, if I say that I'm doing art at Loughborough people say, "Well,
do you play sport?" It's almost like you're getting judged
by—like, say, Brighton is actually fantastic for art but
people might not know that and people might have already an opinion
about Brighton University than they do about art at university
and it is unfair that they should be taking it department by department
at the different universities rather than taking Loughborough
as a university, because that's unfair. People have this false
impression that Loughborough is just about sport. Obviously it's
got a fantastic engineering department, a fantastic art department
and people just think about Loughborough as sport. I think it's
unfair that employers think like that.
Q210 Dr Harris: Just a couple of
quick questions. If you wanted to, would it be possible for you
to copy someone else's work from the internet, for example, in
your course work or in your essays for those of you for whom it
is relevant? If you did, do you feel that would be detected? I
know you would never do it.
Ms Donaghy: I think it would definitely
be detected. I mean, this year I've just submitted a piece of
course work and it had to be submitted with a disk so they can
check for plagiarism and things like that. So you could definitely
not copy it all. Definitely not.
Mr Williamson: The only way I
could think of copying it is if I actually paid someone else directly
to write it for me. That's the only way I could think of doing
it.
Q211 Dr Harris: Have you thought
of doing that?
Mr Williamson: No!
Q212 Dr Harris: Anyone with any different
views?
Mr Sarfo-Kantanka: I know the
university has a system now where you hand in your assignment
or your dissertation online. They have a system which checks.
They've got like a database of different journals from way back,
so if they pick up any sentences or anything that's directly quoted,
you haven't cited it or you haven't referenced it appropriately,
then they'll be able to pick up on plagiarism.
Q213 Dr Harris: Let me ask you a
different question. If it was decided that we needed to have more
people doing science subjects, subjects where we were sort, and
they said, "Right, we're going to convert some courses that
were not so useful to the country—I am not saying that they
are not academic courses, media studies is often quoted, do you
think your student body generally would be happy with that or
do you feel that people should be entitled to study what they
want and as long as they meet the qualifications the university
should lay on the places if they can?
Mr Chotai: I think that students
should be allowed to study what they feel they want to at university,
whether that's media studies or television or radio, or whether
it's business and management. I think if the Government was looking
to do something like that, it could maybe look at financial incentives
for the degrees they were wanting to push that they felt were
more relevant, just as in the case where teacher training is done.
The specific courses where teachers are needed the extra money
is pumped into it.
Q214 Dr Harris: So the Government
could say, "Right, we'll give you free education for the
courses we think are useful but we're going to charge you, so
poor people can't do media studies because we're going to have
a means test on the courses we don't think are that useful? Is
that what you're proposing?
Mr Chotai: I'm not proposing in
that sort of way, but I just think everyone should have the option
to study what they want to, but if there us a demand for pharmacists,
et cetera, and that's vital for the country there's got
to be encouragement along there. I would say financial, in my
opinion, is the best way to encourage students but I wouldn't
say you should discriminate against anyone who wants to do media
studies.
Q215 Dr Harris: Does anyone disagree
with that?
Mr Williamson: Only in respect
that you should put more money into both departments. I can't
see why that's not possible.
Q216 Dr Harris: So it's wrong?
Mr Williamson: Well, I'm not a
government minister. I don't decide that.
Q217 Dr Harris: I am asking you.
Say you can only afford a certain number of places. In order to
have more engineers, say, or maths graduates for maths teaching,
or—perhaps not accountants these days but other useful things,
people with Chinese, for example, or who speak Indian and if there
is a set amount and they have to cut something, do you feel that
is fair, because that would mean certain people would not be able
to go to do the things they wanted to do?
Mr Williamson: I think it depends
on who you're offering it to. If you're opening it up to anybody
who wants to study that I wouldn't think that's a good idea, but
if you're opening it to people who can't afford the subject they
want to, like science, then that makes sense.
Ms Hopkins: I don't know whether
it would have a bad effect, say, if people at my school pushed
and they didn't want you to do art, they wanted you to do architecture,
and say they wanted you to do architecture instead of doing art
because it made the school look better, or whatever, I think then
I would have done architecture and I would have dropped out, and
that's just costing me money, it's costing you guys money, it's
costing everybody money. So if you're pushing people to do courses
that aren't right for them, not because they wanted to, it could
actually have a bad effect and I just don't thing it would work.
Q218 Dr Harris: Yes, it could. My
last question, which leads into financial matters but does not
deal with some of the other questions is, do you feel that you
or any of your colleagues with the level of debt you are likely
to have means that that is going to impact on your career choice?
Is it conceivable to you that you might not go into a doctorate
or research if you had a bigger debt because you want to get a
job that pays more money straight away, or is that not a factor
for most students because they love what they want to do and they
are prepared to have more debt?
Mr Sarfo-Kantanka: I think it
depends on the students themselves.
Q219 Dr Harris: It does, but I am
asking what is your view?
Mr Sarfo-Kantanka: My view is
that the debt is lingering over me. Whether I like it or not,
I have to pay it back. I want to pursue my passions. I want to
pursue what I'm interested in and I would see that as an issue,
the debt hanging over me, but I'm speaking for myself.
Mr Chotai: I think wholeheartedly
that people would definitely consider looking at whether they
wanted to study maths or something like that because of the cost
implications. I think people are much more likely today to take
a year out to work to earn the money or, you know, secure a strong
work offer or some way to ensure they can pay the fees they want
to carry on to and I think it is a major issue.
Mr Williamson: I only want to
say that I personally wouldn't be able to because I have too much
debt.
Ms Hopkins: There's a lot of people
at my university who aren't doing masters because of the money
implications.
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