Examination of Witnesses (Questions 380
- 387)
MONDAY 9 MARCH 2009
PROFESSOR PAUL
RAMSDEN, MR
PETER WILLIAMS
AND MR
ANTHONY MCCLARAN
Q380 Graham Stringer: If people see
BA, BSc after somebody's name they assume a level has been achieved.
What I am asking is, how do you know that level has been achieved?
Mr Williams: Because the universities
have assessment processes which are moderated by external examiners,
which meet their own regulations and which have provided all the
information the university needs to be able to say that the student
has met the necessary standard, the internal processes, which
themselves are verified externally and are related back to the
qualifications framework I mentioned earlier.
Q381 Graham Stringer: Can you explain
this to me then, that when you look at the time history students
in Durham are expected to spend per week, not contact time just
the time to get a degree, it is 28 hours at Durham and it is just
over 18 hours at Reading. Does this mean that teaching is more
efficient at Reading or that the students are brighter, or there
is no equivalence between those degrees, or one set of students
are not reaching a basic standard?
Mr Williams: I think one of the
things one has to do is to be rather careful about the validity
of the information you have got. There is a distinction to be
drawn between learning hours and teaching hours and I am not sure
which ones you are quoting.
Q382 Graham Stringer: Learning hours.
Mr Williams: Learning hours will
vary from student to student over time and the students will change
from year to year, so I think it is dangerous to try and put too
much weight on that kind of information. However, having said
that, I do think it is important that the universities can say
why their learning hours are as they are. Why students are learning
at the rate they are is part of the universities' responsibility.
Q383 Graham Stringer: Can you explain
two things, the degree inflation which is going on and what the
meaning of that is, and secondly would you comment on what the
Centre for Higher Education Research and Information has stated,
that the educational experience of higher education students in
the UK in some respects is less than world-class when compared
with its counterparts elsewhere in Europe?
Mr Williams: Again, these are
generalisations which I am not at all sure I would necessarily
subscribe to.
Q384 Graham Stringer: The second
one, I accept, is a general criticism or generalisation, but the
first one is not. There has been a degree of inflation, there
are more students getting firsts and 2.1s as a percentage than
there were previously?
Mr Williams: I think that question
was answered in the previous session.
Q385 Graham Stringer: I am asking
for your answer. You might have a different answer.
Mr Williams: Okay, my answer is
that I do not trust degree classifications. I have said that before
and I will say it again, and I think they are locally valid but
nationally when you aggregate them up they are not a useful tool
and they are used as if they were a useful tool. So I think the
individual universities or individual subjects within the universities
are doing a reasonable job and I do believe that the change from
norm-reference into criterion-reference and assessment has made
quite a profound difference. In other words, if you are no longer
constrained by the number of firsts you award on a distribution
basis and you move to this position whereby if you demonstrate
you have learnt the stuff you get the mark and you get the grade,
then that will make the kind of difference which I think has been
made. But I find these degree classes -
Q386 Graham Stringer: Let me return
then, as a final point, to general classification. When asked
to justify basic standards you talked about employment but what
the Centre for Higher Education Research was really doing was
making a more meaningful comparison with how this country earns
its living, with other universities in other parts of the world.
Do you believe that our degrees are keeping pace with standards
in other countries?
Mr Williams: I have seen no evidence
that they are not.
Q387 Graham Stringer: So you just
reject the criticism. Have you seen evidence that they are?
Mr Williams: One of the pieces
of evidence is how popular our universities and degrees are to
international students. The international student market is buoyant.
Our international student market is buoyant. We are the second
most successful country in the world for international students.
They do not have to come here, they can go anywhere, but they
come here because they know that they get a much higher degree
of personal engagement, which is not known in Europe to anything
like the same extent. The European models are quite different
from those here and the numbers of students from the EU, for example,
who are coming here increases year on year, as Anthony will be
able to confirm. Our education is a success. We are good. We provide
good education, we provide diverse education, we provide education
to fit the needs of a wide range of students, not just a particular
stereotype. It is a success story.
Chairman: I think on that very positive
note can we thank you very much indeed, Peter Williams, and can
we also thank you for all the work you have done at the QAA, and
do not take our questioning as in any way a criticism, even though
it is, of your work! Thank you also, Anthony McClaran, Chief Executive
of the Universities and Colleges Admissions, and thank you very
much indeed, Professor Paul Ramsden, and we wish you all the very
best with the Academy.
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