Examination of Witnesses (Questions 101
- 119)
MONDAY 23 MARCH 2009
MS CARLY
ROWLEY, MR
TOM DUTTON,
MR ADAM
HODGSON, MR
JOEL MARTIN,
MR GEMMA
JEROME AND
MR EDWARD
NUSSEY
Q101 Chairman: We come to the final
session of our evidence taking this afternoon at Liverpool Hope
University. Just before I start this session could I make a point.
I have received a communication from the University and College
Union about not having a specific representative of the UCU on
the panel today. First of all, can I thank Dr Bennett, the UCU
Secretary, for that communication, and to say that I do apologise
for not having a specific representative on the panel, but could
I also say that at the other sessions which we are having on this
particular inquiry, I would like to assure you and the UCU that
junior lecturing staff, if I could use that term in a positive
sense rather than a pejorative sense, will be on a panel. It is
something which my colleague Mr Marsden brought up at our meeting
last week. We do intend to have that on one of our final panels
and we will make sure that the UCU's views are properly represented.
I apologise if we have caused any offence to you this afternoon.
Could I welcome, I do not know what a collective of students is,
students I suppose Ms Carly Rowley from Liverpool Hope; Tom Dutton
from Liverpool Hope; Adam Hodgson from Liverpool John Moores;
Joel Martin from John Moores; Gemma Jerome from University of
Liverpool; and Edward Nussey from the University of Liverpool.
Welcome to you all and thank you very much indeed. I know you
have sat through the other two sessions so you will be well versed
in answering our questions. We would like first of all to give
you roughly a minute, two minutes at the maximum (we will not
time you but Glen will!) just to say what you are studying, why
you came to university at all, and why this particular university.
So Carly the floor is all yours. The whole world is listening
at this moment in time.
Ms Rowley: My name is Carly. I
study English Literature and Music as a combined degree. I am
in my final year. I have immensely enjoyed it. The reason I decided
to come to university was because in my A levels I did not feel
that I got grades that were sufficient to reflect my capability
and my hard work. I have always worked really hard all the way
through my education and I wanted the chance to come to university
to study things that I had a passion for. I chose Hope University
because of the connections between the Philharmonic and Hope University.
Generally I feel that I have been really well looked after and
I have learnt a lot about myself and a lot about the topics that
I have been studying as well.
Q102 Chairman: Fantastic. How long
was that? One minute—that was brilliant. Tom?
Mr Dutton: Good afternoon. I am
studying Philosophy and English Language. I came to Liverpool
because before I came to university I took a year out to work
so a lot of my friends had already gone and it was the last city
to be taken. As you can understand, it is quite unusual to have
someone everywhere around the country so Liverpool it was. I chose
Liverpool Hope because it offered combined courses and I wanted
to study philosophy but not as a whole topic or a single honours.
That is why I came here.
Mr Hodgson: I study Business Maths.
I am in my third year. I have just taken a gap year as well in
between my studies to work. I chose this university originally
for the course, although that course was Informational Mathematics,
and then all the full maths courses were combined into one because
there were not enough students, so I did not actually get the
opportunity to do the course that I wanted to do. I chose Liverpool
because it was far away from home. I am from Essex and I just
wanted to get far away. I came to university because there was
an expectation in my school that all students there would be going
to university. I think all but three students actually went to
university. My parents also wanted me to go to university. Neither
of them did so they put a lot of money into giving all of us,
my brother and two sisters, a good education so that we would
all get into university.
Mr Martin: I study Psychology
and Biology at John Moores. I have to admit it has taken me quite
a while to get myself sorted. I was far from the perfect student
in college, but the pressure was on from my family to go to university.
I did not have the luxury of choice when it came down to it and
John Moores was the only place at which I got accepted. I did
apply for a position at Teesside, which is where I come from,
but I was determined to move away from home and, I do not know,
here I am.
Q103 Chairman: Joel, just to inform
you I was the head of Ormsby School just down the bank from you
and we had great rivalry with Nunthorpe, which was a far inferior
school to Ormsby at the time, just to make you feel at home! Gemma?
Ms Jerome: My decision to go to
university was based on a pursuit of ideals and aspirations plus
a realistic consideration about the conditions of employability.
I think both these intentions remain relevant in today's increasingly
difficult employment market and economic downturn, including the
changing nature of the higher education system that seems increasingly
focused on those subjects which have the most secure revenue-raising
and research potential. My decision to come to the University
of Liverpool was not merely as one-dimensional as academic attainment,
and its corollary resource. I was impressed that the Civic Design
Department, in which I am now an actively engaged pupil, was exemplary
in its field. The lecturers, in the main, engage in policy guidance
at various levels of agency and governance. However, my decision
was measured and these institutional accolades were of marginal
concern. Moreover, I was persuaded by the characteristic diversity
of Liverpool as a city and a place of study. This diversity should
be manifest in the range of subjects offered and at present this
is true of the University of Liverpool, a thriving academic community,
a stone's throw from the city centre, and a capital of culture.
I appreciate it for its diversity and equal opportunities. I am
keen that these key characteristics remain a feature of both my
city and my university.
Q104 Chairman: Thank you very much
indeed, Gemma. Edward?
Mr Nussey: Good afternoon. I am
studying Life Sciences Applicable to Medicine. I went through
clearing to come to the University of Liverpool and as such I
had the opportunity to stay on an extra year at school to attain
the grades to get into dental school, which was my initial aim.
I chose to go to university mainly for the independence and to
develop as a person academically and personally. I think university
has allowed me to fulfil all those things and I do not think the
three years that I have spent at university has been wasted time
at all. I chose Liverpool University itself mainly because of
the course that it offered and the potential outcome that it would
give me when I wanted to reapply for dentistry, which I have done.
Also the University of Liverpool is in a good location for me.
It is far enough away from home that my parents do not hear everything
that is going on and it gives me the freedom that I think is important
at university.
Q105 Chairman: Thank you all very
much indeed. Adam, can I come straight back to you. All members
of the panel appear to have made personal decisions about coming
into higher education but you said something else about there
was an expectation of your school and an expectation of your parents.
What in terms of your school did the careers department do to
guide you into the most appropriate post-19 university course,
whatever you want to call it, what did they do that was so brilliant?
Mr Hodgson: They got me to come
to John Moores.
Q106 Chairman: A good answer is that!
Mr Hodgson: They did not encourage
me to come to John Moores personally. When I told the careers
adviser I was applying for John Moores he said, "I have never
heard of that university before." What did the university
do to get students to go?
Q107 Chairman: What did your school
do? What was the careers department like? How carefully were you
guided?
Mr Hodgson: Not very. There was
a careers adviser, I met her once, we had a chat. I remember filling
out some very long questionnaire. It was questions and it was
meant to guide you into what course would be best and at the end
it told me maths and I was like, "Oh good, I am glad I spent
an hour doing that," when I knew that I was going to do maths
anyway because that was my best achieving subject.
Q108 Chairman: Does anybody else
have a view about their careers department? How were you helped,
Edward?
Mr Nussey: A lot of the push at
our school was along the line that they wanted a take of how many
students went to Cambridge and Oxford. I cannot speak for other
schools, but I think what is more important is that the students
are going into a course or an area, whether it is further education
or an apprenticeship, which they want to do and which leads them
on the journey of where they want to go. Judging everyone on what
graded university that they are going for is the wrong way of
looking at it and it should be more whether people have achieved
what they want to achieve and that the potential to go into any
different area is available to every student.
Q109 Chairman: Tom, did you have
a good careers department at school that sat down with you?
Mr Dutton: Yes, I would not be
here without them, if I can say that much. I went to South Cheshire
College which was very, very good, so I have heard. They used
to tell me that it was the best in the country while I was there,
but, yes, they have a very good careers department.
Q110 Chairman: What was good about
it?
Mr Dutton: They were on my back
all the time, "If you want to go to uni you do need to get
this personal statement in," ringing me up.
Q111 Chairman: They were very proactive?
Mr Dutton: Definitely.
Chairman: You mention, Edward, this issue
about pecking order so perhaps I could ask my colleague to come
in on that particular issue about the Liverpool universities.
Q112 Mr Marsden: If I could ask all
of you really but maybe if I start with you, Joel, because one
of the issues that we have just touched on, and I know one or
two of you were in on the last session, was whether universities
should be rated in terms of a whole or whether they should be
rated in terms of their school. When you considered coming here
was is the school or was it the university or was it just circumstance?
You seemed to indicate that it was circumstance.
Mr Martin: It was circumstance.
I did not have the luxury of choice, as I said. My first choice
was actually Edinburgh. I did have an auntie who was very knowledgeable
and she provided me with a lot of useful information. She said
that John Moores had a very good psychology department. I did
know that it was psychology I wanted to study because I did biology
A level as well. That is what attracted me to the psychology and
biology course.
Q113 Mr Marsden: Gemma, of course
you are a faculty rep for social and environmental studies at
Liverpool and you gave, if I can put it this way, a very good
promotion both for your university and also for the city in your
presentation. In terms of mixing and matching across the university,
we have brought six of you here together this afternoon from three
different universities, but how much mixing is there between the
students of the various universities? How much are you involved
in communal activities and things like that?
Ms Jerome: I am also a trustee
for the Guild of Students at Liverpool University and we are currently
undergoing a policy of collaboration between ourselves and John
Moores, so definitely on policy and from a political dimension
there is a proactive approach to the two universities, not only
sharing resources but considering themselves brethren within the
city in terms of offering academic and social space. Maybe from
a grass-roots level there is still—and I am not from Liverpool
so maybe I am a student picking it up more—an element of
competition between the institutions and that is not going away.
Q114 Mr Marsden: When people meet
in the bars and the pubs, it is a bit like Everton and Liverpool,
is it?
Ms Jerome: I suppose that is a
fair analogy, yes, there is a degree of judgment between the universities.
Q115 Chairman: What is it based on?
What is the hierarchy based on?
Ms Jerome: I think it is from
outside perspectives, league tables, the kind of national perception
of red brick and Russell Group and perhaps also the type of courses
offered at each institution. Tom mentioned about the opportunity
to study combined subjects. That is not necessarily the traditional
remit of a civic institution like the University of Liverpool
where it would be at Hope.
Q116 Mr Marsden: Carly, can I come
to you because you were very specific in what you said. You said,
"I came to Liverpool Hope because ... " and then you
listed a whole range of unique selling points, as it were, that
combined I would not say eclectic but the very interesting combination
of things that you wanted to do. Presumably you are in a slight
minority in that respect among your colleagues here at Hope?
Ms Rowley: The fact that I picked
these two subjects that may not appear to have any relationship?
Q117 Mr Marsden: Yes.
Ms Rowley: Certainly as I have
come into the third year, there have been lots of interesting
crossovers in the subject matter in the two subjects, and I think
knowing more about both of them has in fact helped my knowledge
of each, if that makes any sense.
Q118 Mr Marsden: Can I ask you a
very specific question because again in the previous session and
other sessions we have talked about modules. Of course, there
are two sorts of modules structures. The first one is you start
off with a very broad module and then become more specialised.
Then there is the other one which I sometimes refer to as the
YO! Sushi model whereby you have a bite-sized course and then
about three or four weeks later you have another bite-sized course,
but rather like the YO! Sushi thing where they all go round on
a roundabout, you do not always remember by the time you have
eaten the third one what the first or the second one was. Was
your course a pyramid course or a flat course?
Ms Rowley: To be honest, I suppose
I have had two pyramids and a sushi-style arrangement as well.
When I came in the first year everything was rather broad but
because I was taking both subjects I was starting at the bottom
of those pyramids, and as I have gone upwards it has gone into
that more specialised formation, but at the same time music, by
its nature, incorporates lots of different things so in my second
year I studied composition for half of the time and performance
for half of a module, if you like, and then this year I have gone
to teach in Sweden as half of a module and performance as half
of a module. I think it is a really good thing because it means
that I am getting to take more risks and to develop myself as
an individual as well as being an academic.
Chairman: One of the key things about
this inquiry is your experiences as students of the teaching quality
and I am going to bring in my colleague Graham Stringer here.
We want you to be as frank as you can because nobody is listening—
Mr Marsden: Apart from the world!
Q119 Graham Stringer: You listened
to the evidence session earlier and different professors said
that the reason more people got better classes of degrees now
was because you all worked harder. I am prepared to accept that
you all work harder than I did when I was at university, but I
would be interested in knowing how many hours a week you do and
what contact team you have with your lecturer in tutorials and
if you do practicals. If you could tell us as honestly as you
can, because, as Phil says, nobody is listening, how many hours
you put in a week.
Mr Nussey: In my third year now
it is probably about eight or so hours of fixed lectures, but
built into that we have lab periods because we do research projects,
so although my supervisor is part-time so it may be half a day
a week that we have one-on-one contact, other colleagues of mine
at the university will have considerably more.
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