Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200
- 219)
MONDAY 30 MARCH 2009
PROFESSOR JANET
BEER AND
DR JOHN
HOOD
Q200 Graham Stringer: Is a 2:1 from
Oxford Brookes the equivalent to a 2:1 from Oxford University—say
in the same subject, history—and how would you know?
Professor Beer: In the general
run of things there is very little equivalence between Brookes
and Oxford, there is not that much overlap. As it happens we both
do history and you have a history student later on this afternoon
that you can ask that question to, whether she thinks the degree
is the same.
Q201 Graham Stringer: You are setting
the exams autonomously and determining the curriculum; is your
2:1 in history equivalent to Oxford University's 2:1 in history?
Professor Beer: It depends what
you mean by equivalent. I am sorry to quibble around the word
but is it worth the same is a question that is weighted with too
many social complexities. In terms of the way in which quality
and standards are managed in the university I have every confidence
that a 2:1 in history from Oxford Brookes is of a nationally recognised
standard.
Q202 Graham Stringer: That is rather
avoiding answering the question, is it not?
Professor Beer: Yes indeed.
Ian Stewart: That is honest.
Graham Stringer: Are you going to answer
it directly, Dr Hood?
Q203 Chairman: Sorry, I do not think
we can let you away with that.
Dr Hood: Maybe Professor Beer
could come back when I have had a crack at this, if she is happy.
Professor Beer: Sure.
Dr Hood: We teach in very different
ways between the two institutions and I think our curricula are
different between the two institutions, so the question really
is are we applying a consistent standard in assessing our students
as to firsts, 2:1s, 2:2s et cetera? What I want to say
in that respect is simply this, that we use external examiners
to moderate our examination processes in all of our disciplinary
areas at Oxford, and we take that external examination assessment
very, very seriously. The external examiners' reports after each
round are submitted through our faculty boards, they are assessed
and considered by the faculty boards, they are then assessed at
the divisional board level and by the educational committee of
the university. This is a process that goes on round the clock
annually, so we would be comfortable that our degree classifications
are satisfying an expectation of national norms.
Q204 Graham Stringer: The external
examiners are satisfying the curriculum you have set, and you
said previously—I think I an quoting you accurately—that
the taxpayer should be satisfied that what money is received by
the universities is well-spent, or words to that effect, but if
the taxpayer is spending however many thousand pounds it takes
to get a 2:1 student graduated in history should not both of you
be able to answer the question directly that you have spent the
taxpayers' money to an equivalent value and what has come out
is of the same value both to the student and to the taxpayer?
Dr Hood: On the point of have
we spent it to the equivalent value, I think it is a slightly
different point from the question you are asking. I have already
illustrated to you by answering a question earlier about the cost
of our provision that we are putting an awful lot more cost into
the education of each student than Oxford Brookes is. I do not
say that to make judgment about that, I am just talking about
value per se. I have answered your question quite correctly by
saying that as a result of the quality assurance processes we
have the taxpayer should be very satisfied that we are achieving
the national norm in terms of the classing of our degrees.
Q205 Graham Stringer: I did not want
to interrupt you but I do have a supplementary which is the external
examiners will tell you that you are doing what you have set out
to do to a standard you have set but my question is really slightly
different. It is that that is fine for Oxford University but of
the £12 billion to £14 billion, whatever it is, that
we as taxpayers put into universities, we need to be able to be
reasonably assured that if somebody from Wolverhampton University,
not just your two universities, is saying that a student is getting
a 2:1 it is roughly equal.
Dr Hood: Can I help you with that?
That is the reason that the Government established the Academic
Audit Unit, so that you would have an independent process of assuring
the institutional processes, and that is exactly what the Academic
Audit Unit does. It exists to assure that our processes operate
to a certain quality and standard so that the outcome is an outcome
that the taxpayer can be satisfied with.
Professor Beer: All the processes
described by Dr Hood in terms of the way in which the students
receive their marks and those marks are validated are identical
in this institution and are monitored, as you know, by the Quality
Assurance Agency.
Q206 Graham Stringer: On the quality
assurance, when we have had the QAA before us they have told us
that all they deal with is process and they reeled back in horror
when we said "Are you looking at standards at all and comparability?"
and they said, "No, each university is independent and they
set their own standards."
Dr Hood: But we do it by reference
to external examiners in the case of the gradation of degrees.
Q207 Chairman: May I just come in
here? I am treating this conversation with incredulity if I am
perfectly honest. If you are telling me that it costs roughly
twice as much to educate a student at Oxford as it does at Oxford
Brookes, in terms of the hours invested you invest significantly
more time in your students than they do at Oxford Brookes, you
are telling us that your admissions process is so rigorous that
you are creaming the world's best students in order to get in
and yet you are saying the outcome at the end of the day is exactly
the same. Why do we bother?
Dr Hood: I did not say any of
those things with respect. I did not say we were creaming the
world's best students; on the contrary we set out overwhelmingly
to find students in this country and, because of European legislation,
the balance from Europe, who can come to Oxford with the potential
to succeed at Oxford. Let us just get the facts correct.
Q208 Chairman: I will concede that
to you. Can you come back to my central point?
Dr Hood: I did not say that we
are teaching them to the same standard, the same content or by
the same processes as Oxford Brookes University; what I said was
that we are using independent assessors from other institutions
by and large in this country to act as checks and balances on
the quality of our examining and the quality of our certification
of a student's degree.
Q209 Graham Stringer: We are tending
to go round in a circle, are we not?
Dr Hood: Yes.
Q210 Graham Stringer: I do not want
to repeat the Chairman's question but he is saying you are putting,
in round terms, twice as much time and twice as many resources
into a student who comes from the best academic background, some
of the most able students in this country, and your external examiners
are saying you are doing very well at that and they are validating
what you are doing, but you then are saying that there is a read-
across to 2:1s in other universities, that students are reaching
the same academic standard; that seems highly unlikely does it
not? If you take the brightest students and you put more effort
into them, more tutorial effort, more teaching hours, more resources
generally in a higher academic environment, do you not think that
the world would look askance at you saying that at the end of
that you are coming out with the same kind of qualifications as
somebody from—
Dr Hood: I am not saying they
are coming out with the same kind of qualifications.
Q211 Graham Stringer: It is a higher
standard.
Dr Hood: I am not saying it is
a higher standard, it is a different standard, it is a different
education. One of the important things about the sector in this
country is that you do have choice about the sort of institution.
I also want to make another comment to you and that is that the
University of Oxford as a number of other research-intensive universities
in this country is aiming to provide a quality and a standard
of education that is competitive with the very best institutions
of the world; that is what we are attempting to do. Our examination
standards are tough and they should be tough and we do have our
gradations externally validated as I have described. I am not
arguing that what a student at Oxford learns or the way they learn
or the critical faculties that we train them to use are what happen
at Oxford Brookes University; I am not arguing that at all.
Q212 Ian Stewart: Is it a qualitative
difference in the number of ones and 2:1s or is it a quantitative
difference?
Dr Hood: I do not know what Professor
Beer's statistics are to be honest.
Q213 Ian Stewart: They are roughly
half what yours are.
Professor Beer: Exactly; I would
say that most other institutions would have a longer tail so the
University of Oxford would be more likely to have more 2:1s and
firsts than other institutions.
Q214 Ian Stewart: Is that because
of resources?
Professor Beer: I would say no,
although of course more resources are always welcome. We teach
in a different way and the methods of teaching at Oxford University
do not suit everyone; there are students who would find that kind
of intensity—
Q215 Ian Stewart: I am perplexed
at Dr Hood's explanation that it is a different experience without
qualifying what is different about it.
Professor Beer: It is different
between subjects within this institution. The six students you
will see—
Q216 Ian Stewart: No, within the
same subject.
Professor Beer: What I am saying
is they are different experiences according to different academic
disciplines and they are different according to the stage of people's
lives at which they take up higher education, so I would not expect
or indeed think it is desirable that a mature student in nursing
would have the same experience as an 18 year old in history of
art.
Q217 Ian Stewart: Let me just stop
you there because I do not think we are asking about a comparison
between different disciplines, we are really pressing you within
the same disciplines. Implicit in Dr Hood's answer to Graham Stringer
was that there was a different experience and what we are keen
to find out is what is it that is different and what do potential
employers recognise is different between the experience of Oxford
and a different experience with the same degree in the same subject
at the same level, one or 2:1, in Oxford Brookes.
Dr Hood: We are setting out to
train our students how to think, we are setting out to develop
their critical faculties, we are setting out to develop in a very
sophisticated way their powers of analysis and synthesis.
Q218 Ian Stewart: Are we not doing
that at Oxford Brookes?
Dr Hood: May I finish, please?
Q219 Chairman: Excuse me, Dr Hood,
we are trying to have our questions answered.
Dr Hood: I am trying to answer
it, sir.
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