Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-39)
MS LIZ
WALLIS, PROFESSOR
GEOFF LAYER,
DR ROGER
BENNETT, MR
GARY WILLIAMSON,
MS LINDA
FLORANCE, MR
MARK ANDREWS,
MR TOM
SMITH AND
MS RUTH
ADAMS
14 MAY 2008
Q20 Chairman: Liz and Linda, I want
you both to come in here and then I want to come to Tom because
Barnsley has got some particular problems which I want to discuss.
On this business about bite-size chunks and funding mechanism?
Ms Wallis: Yes, I think the key
here is the mismatch, as we have already identified, that if we
want to create a demand-led system then it needs to be demand-led,
and if you make it demand-led, employers will want things that
fit very specific purposes that are usually quite short term and
do not necessarily lead to qualifications, and similarly individuals
themselves will be focused on acquiring a skill to do a thing,
and that is particularly the case for small employers. I think
that has been an interesting issue in the context of future-proofing.
The bit where it falls down on demand-led is taking the views
of small employers or even employers generally as the indicator
of what we need in the future. I think there has to be an industry
component in the IT industry and in the media industry saying
what kind of skills and qualifications will be needed in five
or ten years' time because if we rely only on employers dictating
the system then those employers will have, of necessity, quite
a short-term view; less so the big employers but certainly the
smaller ones.
Ms Florance: I think that point
is very important and it leads back to a couple of things that
we have touched on: one is qualifications reform that is going
on in parallel with the Leitch recommendations, and the other
is that old chestnut of labour market intelligence and who is
doing which bit of it and what is it for. Leitch was very clear
that the best way to engage employers, be they large or small,
was in sectors—I stress just sectors—and by doing
that you can actually explore what are the issues for that sector
in a global context and future-proof anything that needs to be
put in place for that sector. At local level we then need the
delivery mechanism but if there is not a join-up between the information
coming out for the sector, and what is specifically right for
that sector and what is then being delivered on the ground, or
offered on the ground or even understood on the ground, what you
are going to get is individual employers in small businesses not
really understanding that their competition is not Bradford and
Barnsley, it is Beijing and they have to be able to compete in
that market, so the brokerage service actually needs to be raising
their aspirations as well as delivering what they need to get
them on the next step on the ladder in that direction. If they
are leading in the wrong direction, because (that is going to
lead to business failure in the competitive market that they are
facing) then we have wasted a lot of public service and money
along the way.
Q21 Chairman: Tom, I want to bring
you in before I bring in Tim to deal more with the implementation
of training and skills in the region. Barnsley traditionally has
had a low-skills economy. It was very focused obviously on mining
and heavy industry. Does the Leitch agenda mean anything to you?
Mr Smith: Yes and I think, similar
to colleagues, we applaud a lot within it. I suppose from my perspective
where I am coming from in Barnsley, one of our issues is pre sub-level
two.
Q22 Chairman: Pre sub-level two?
Mr Smith: Sub-level two and pre
any level at all, if I am being honest. We are just somewhere
short of 50%, round about 42.3% of adults in Barnsley with no
qualifications at all. One of the biggest barriers and blocks
for our adult population is literacy and numeracy skills for life,
which I will come on to later on. 20,000 people are on incapacity
benefit as well, so a large part of our work at the moment is
about targeting those people who are not anywhere near that level
two qualification—and it was interesting talking about qualifications
and qualifications frameworks—and getting that right so
that those people can be reengaged. Some of those may well already
be in the labour market but a lot of them are outside of that
and it is finding a route through, and often it is through a community
route, to get those people reengaged and upskilled. A lot of it
is about confidence and aspirations and that is not always the
nicest thing to say, but it is, to help those people get on there.
For a lot of them it is a learning journey but the end result
is often employment, it is higher level skills and benefits around
that.
Q23 Chairman: Is that going to happen
with this current policy agenda?
Mr Smith: That is the bit, I suppose,
that is weak in this. I suppose it is the adult learning that
sits beneath that. It is the routes in; it is the personalised
pathways; it is the IAG; it is all about that package that can
support those adults, and there are significant numbers in Barnsley,
on that route through to higher level skills and then to better
employment and the whole economic agenda really. I think that
from our perspective in Barnsley, we are looking at this model
now, we have an infrastructure that is within the community that
is working with somewhere in the region of 12,000 to 14,000 adults,
and what we are finding is routes and ways of accelerating those
adults from no qualifications (and I do not necessarily mean no
skills because they often have the skills and the abilities and
what they do not have is the qualifications) and, as I said, the
biggest barrier is literacy and the numeracy. As a way to accelerate
that through, in a sense to get into that whole Leitch thing really,
there has been some interesting work. We have been working with
Yorkshire Forward and the HE institutions on accelerating people
through and delivering `year zero' courses within the community
and then a supported thing through. I think there is a bit of
a mismatch, it feels, and part of that is funding because I think
we need some permissions with the funding that we have on sub-level
two in terms of moving people. Some of it is around the qualifications
framework and the progression routes and some of it is focusing
on individuals and communicating to them skills opportunities,
employment opportunities, and that route there as well.
Q24 Mr Boswell: I would like to talk
about another area of potential confusion, and maybe we will leave
Ruth out of this first question and start with the two employers
in the shape of Gary and proxy of Mark. We are looking at the
regional agenda for delivery, which is Linda's point. Do you think
that the priorities and approaches represented by this excellent
panel this afternoon can align sufficiently to make co-operation
effective and practical in delivering this? Firstly, would you
like to work together—and I hope the answer is yes and,
secondly, practically, given different funding streams, slightly
different interests and slightly different requirements, can you
do so?
Mr Andrews: That is a very good
question. Having just agreed to take on the Regional Skills Partnership
board chair in the last days, my answer has to be yes—and
I have to say there are a lot of people in industry who have told
me I am absolutely mad to take it on—however I do think
there is a real lack of clarity from the Government as to what
the role of the RSP is. In fact in a meeting just last week of
the Regional Skills Partnership, I have almost taken the approach
that we need to take a step back from the morass out there and
say, "We all know there are some issues in the region. Some
of them are being adequately dealt with by other parts of the
system and if that is the case, let's just monitor that and let
it carry on, but let's also have a look to see whether there are
things that are falling through the gaps."
Q25 Mr Boswell: So management by
exception?
Mr Andrews: Absolutely and, as
I say, it is very early days in the process and literally this
was a week ago that we have just had this new meeting, but I do
believe that the partners, which is just about everybody from
the skills components that exist within the county, are absolutely
committed philosophically to making this work. What we have got
to come up with is the means to do that. One of the issues is
where does the RSP stop and the work and skills boards that exist
in cities start? To me again, there is no point in trying to duplicate
that regionally. We have got to see whether there are things we
can do that could add value at the more local level. It is really
part of the management machine. Unfortunately, I do not think
we have been given any steer from government as to what the role
is, so we are making it up as we go along. I did put this to the
Rt Hon John Denham a week ago quite vociferously. Some clarity
would be nice but in the meantime, as I say, we all know what
the problems are; it is trying to find some solutions to move
them forward.
Q26 Mr Boswell: Can I slightly pick
up on a specific point and then ask Gary to come in. How do you
see the relationship between the city efforts, which of course
involve local government as well, and Jobcentre Plus and that
city strategy which government is moving towards with the wider
regional strategy? Are there different sorts of needs and can
you tune the band between those two sorts of requirement?
Mr Andrews: I think they are different
sorts of needs. You made the comment earlier that if you look
at Yorkshire it is a very disparate county and the needs within
the centre of Leeds compared to the outback of North or South
Yorkshire are very, very different. For me I feel it is a case
of trying to provide a support mechanism, a best practice networking
arrangement for the work and skills boards that exist in some
of the cities (and need to exist in some of the others because
they do not exist across the board) we need to provide a learning
networking arrangement for them but then fundamentally let them
get on with it, and then try and take the Regional Skills Partnership
to a level where it is looking at issues that cannot be addressed
by competent boards that are already in place.
Q27 Mr Boswell: Gary, do you want
to come in on that?
Mr Williamson: I think Mark is
very brave and I think his colleagues are quite right to say to
him, "Goodness me, what have you let yourself in for?"
because that is exactly the response our skills board members
have had in the first 14 months since they have been there trying
to make an impression or trying to change things. We are not so
different in Leeds from everywhere else in Yorkshire. If you look
at the figures, we have a higher level of regional unemployment
as a city, we have great swathes of our area where there is second-
and third-generation unemployment, similar to you, it is just
the numbers are different (they are probably bigger given the
size of the city). Employers are importing labour from across
West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire and North Yorkshire, that is why
the M62 is so busy. There is a recognition by all employers in
Leeds that we need to do something. The problem is it is the "how",
which I think is what Mark was saying. There are so many agencies
with so many good intentions that it just bamboozles us.
Q28 Mr Boswell: Can I come back to
Mark on this, and if anyone on the education side might like to
join in feel free, as I understand your first thoughts on looking
at the RSP, you are talking about a network so you can share best
practice around and so forth, and also an ability to if not intervene
at least interest yourselves in cases where there is a local deficiency.
Mr Andrews: I think that is part
of it. I think the RSP has struggled a bit during the last year
but during the course of that last year we have been able to get
a fairly coherent view as to what the real priority issues are
on a regional basis. A lot of work was done by Ruth with colleagues
in the LSC and all of the other people involved in the partnership
and now we have got this so-called "helicopter" view
with five priorities for the region. What we are doing with those
five priorities is saying if a couple or three or four of the
partners have already got that under control, great, just keep
us posted, but if there are some glaring holes in there, then
flag them up and we will try and find some resource funding, whatever,
to see if we can make a difference.
Mr Williamson: It sounds very
negative and I think there are lots of people and groups out there
trying to make a difference. I go back to a point I made earlier
on, Leitch was not just about the end game, the qualifications
and the targets, it was about engaging employers in developing
some of the qualifications and engaging the schools to improve
the attainment level which we know in Leeds needs improving. If
you build people in at the start of the process, funnily enough,
you might actually have buy-in at the end of the process. We appear
to be always looking at the end and what is the target; it has
not changed. There is almost a fear I get sometimes from the various
groups and organisations responsible for "education":
that for example they have got 1,600 customers, really is what
you are saying, or employers, but how involved are they in the
process of what you are delivering and how it is delivered? If
you take in Leeds an example of that, the Chamber has been working
with educators on the new diplomas which are industry-led. Unlike
a lot of the country, we have got employers enthused and engaged
but we cannot get the schools engaged, we cannot get the teachers
to be advocates for this diploma for the young people who will
listen to them so there is a mismatch.
Q29 Chairman: Who does it?
Mr Williamson: We cannot work
that out. There is a warehouse in Milton Keynes apparently with
all the literature in! I am showing my age now but when Captain
Kirk landed on an alien planet they all spoke American because
there was a universal translator, and our skills boards and employers
often need that universal translator to understand many of the
things some of my colleagues round here are trying to explain.
Q30 Mr Boswell: I think we might
be included in that. Linda, did you want to come in on that just
to make the point because I do not think Skillfast-UK, wool, textiles,
Yorkshire, are a priority.
Ms Florance: No we are not but
of course our industry uses STEM subjects and therefore as part
of our strategy that is really important to us, but it gets sidelined
because the sector is not a regional priority. Where I was going
to come in here is I think you have asked quite a key question,
Tim, which is the interface between national, regional and local,
and I think it is the area that perhaps Leitch made some recommendations
on but when it came to world-class skills, it was skirted around
slightly. In thinking about the timing, there was a national sub-regional
review going on with the Lyons Report at that very time and actually
this question was never addressed. Mark has touched on it in saying
should we not just provide a clear remit for what should happen
at national, what should happen at regional and what should happen,
where appropriate, at sub-regional level. Leitch actually recommended
the establishment of employment and skills boards at a local level
where it was right to have them, but he also said they should
be licensed by the UK Commission for Employment and Skills, and
we need to re-look at how might that infrastructure really work
and whether it is licensed or not, whether we have got the right
remits in the right place, and whether that would that make it
sensible for employers.
Q31 Mr Boswell: The elephant in the
room—sorry, that might sound ungracious—the one I
kept out of this was the RDA and somebody might like to lead before
Ruth comes in on the relationship between the RSP and the RDA.
If I can just wrap this up, we have got a lot of people at the
party already, which you have all accepted, there are large numbers
of interests, but is there anybody being left out? I tend to mention
the self-employed as an example; the active participation of trade
unions, and not just employers, and employees as opposed to proxy
interests for them. If we are really going to throw everything
at it, do we need to add more people in? Two separate but related
questions: who is really taking the lead between the RSP and the
RDA and is everybody really engaged?
Mr Andrews: We are very much wandering
into new territory with the RSP, but it is my view that part of
the agreement that I have got in taking on the role here is the
absolute backing of the RDA and the LSC and the other partners.
The RDA and the LSC in some ways were always going to be a bigger
part of this simply because that is where a lot of the money is
in this part of the agenda. The LSC is obviously coming into a
period of some transition but we have had a lot of dialogue to
try to ensure that everybody is joined up. I have likened my own
role in this to a non-executive capacity in the RSP. I am therefore
as a non-executive not prepared to do it unless I have got executives
who have actually got the purse strings and resource who are willing
to work together and get on and do things. For me the commitment
is there and there has been a lot of dialogue with Ruth, with
Ruth's boss's, and with Ruth's boss's boss, as well as with similar
people in the LSC. I feel that most of the others are on board
philosophically but I do not believe there is anything in the
system that is really helping us. As I say, some further clarity
on the role of the RSPs from the Government and the points that
both Linda and Gary made would be very helpful in this.
Chairman: I think we have covered that
so I am going to move on to Gordon.
Q32 Mr Marsden: I just want to chip
away a bit more on the whole issue of plans and targets and if
I could just start with you, Ruth, because you submitted a draft
Regional Skills Partnership document to us and that included a
number of targets and, as you said, the scale of the challenge
is significant and many measures exceed many of our RES targets.
Given that and given what we have heard already about disparity
and the various challenges across your region, are these Leitch
targets generally achievable in Yorkshire and Humber or they just
something on a sheet of paper that we are all making aspirational?
Ms Adams: I think they are incredibly
ambitious for this region.
Q33 Mr Boswell: Is that the same
as courageous?
Ms Adams: Courageous, yes.
Q34 Mr Marsden: Before I put you
on oath, Ruth, before you go any further, I would remind you of
the famous TV series Yes, Minister, and when the Minister
was told "That's a very bold statement," it meant that
it was all going to end in tears. Is that what you are saying
about Leitch?
Ms Adams: I think it is going
to be very difficult for us to deliver those targets unless we
can do lots of work bringing about some quite significant culture
change in the aspirations of both people and businesses to demand
this. If I go back to Tom's comment in Barnsley, lots and lots
of effort and work is needed to bring people to the point of thinking,
"Well, that actually is going to be useful for me and that
is something that I aspire to have as a qualification" and
unless we can do something on that I think it is going to be quite
difficult for some of the basic skills and lower level targets
to bring that about. The one we are more optimistic about is the
higher level skills. If we can really do some work with businesses
there we think that is achievable.
Mr Andrews: Just a brief point,
I think the other side of what Ruth said on engaging with small
businesses is a particular challenge in this area as well. There
are an awful lot of small companies. I think there was a piece
of research done recently for the RDA by Leeds Met where they
went around and talked to a lot of small business and, frankly,
the level of interest of those businesses in getting their employees
trained was negligible. I have had personal experience in this
region of putting on open days at our apprentice training centre
to try and encourage small businesses to come in and listen. I
have done it through the IoD where you can access 2,600 members,
and you have only 30 people show up. It is a monumental challenge
to get both sides of this—to get to the individuals and
get them more motivated to get higher skills and qualifications,
and to get to the many, many small businesses that exist here
and get them really engaged.
Chairman: Could we have a brief run round
the table to answer your question.
Q35 Mr Marsden: Is there anybody
here who thinks this is achievable?
Mr Andrews: I think you have to
be aspirational but I do not think any of us should under-estimate
the magnitude of the challenge.
Q36 Mr Marsden: So you think it is
going to be really hard.
Dr Bennett: I think it is beyond
aspirational, and that is only a word, because I do not think
they are achievable. I think you have to be realistic on that
and it is all about trying to motivate to achieve and some of
these targets actually do not motivate employers or the colleges
up and down the country, which are one of the engine rooms for
the delivery of skills more than qualifications. We want challenges
but we want challenges that we can actually achieve. I think it
is really important that you take that on board because the way
forward, if I just pick up on one of Mark's points, is apprenticeships
and it also goes back to Tom's point about his position in Barnsley
because you have young people's apprenticeships and adult apprenticeships.
Q37 Chairman: Does anybody disagree?
Does anybody think we can achieve these targets?
Professor Layer: I am with Ruth
on this in the sense that I think the high-level skills target—
Q38 Chairman: Another 583,000 people
qualified to level four by 2020 in this region?
Professor Layer: I think it is
the most achievable and that is probably to do with the fact that
a lot of what you have heard about is some of the barriers and
obstacles, et cetera, and they are not necessarily the same barriers
at different levels, and there are different ways you can work
that through and there are different ways you can open this up.
I did not say I was confident—I would be more confident
of meeting the level four targets.
Q39 Chairman: More confident is more
confident than confident.
Professor Layer: More confident
relative to the other areas.
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