Engineering: turning ideas into reality - Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills Committee Contents


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 262 - 279)

WEDNESDAY 21 MAY 2008

MR KEITH ELLIOTT, PROFESSOR BARRY CLARKE, DR LESLEY THOMPSON AND MS LYNN TOMKINS

  Q262  Chairman: Could I welcome our witnesses to this evidence session of the Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills Select Committee's inquiry into engineering. I wonder if I could start with you, Professor Clarke. One of the themes which is coming through this inquiry very, very strongly indeed is the massive skills gaps and skills shortages in the UK engineering field, but engineering, we have also been told, has got so many facets to it, so many parts to it, so can you be more specific in terms of where these huge skills gaps and shortages are?

  Professor Clarke: I think there are two things: there is a shortage of engineers entering into the profession of engineering; and 50 per cent of graduates of engineering courses leave the profession within two years of graduation. That is not a bad thing because that means that people with engineering skills go into other professions, financial, teaching and the like, which actually helps the development of engineering in the UK. In terms of the gaps within the knowledge of engineering, this is evolving very rapidly at the moment and indeed the Royal Academy and EPC and others have set up a working group to look into the future of engineering education, which includes DIUS, DBERR, Semta, Construction Skills and universities. The aim is to start to explore how this should develop because we are sensing that a number of bodies, and industry in particular, are stating what we need in five to ten years time compared to what we are producing now. This is really to address the global challenges of climate change, poverty alleviation, and lifeline support systems. There is a gradual change which has been taking place over the years as we are moving from a technology age to an ecological age which means engineers are going to have to communicate much more with the public than they have done in the past, so we are moving into a new era and I think we are the point of change at the moment.

  Q263  Chairman: There always seems to be this sort of disconnect between, first of all, getting the intelligence about skills shortages and then actually bridging that gap into actually producing people to do those jobs. Now, you have got that specific responsibility as a sector skills council.

  Ms Tomkins: We have, yes.

  Q264  Chairman: So where do you see the real problems?

  Ms Tomkins: Well, the problems have been identified. We published the Sector Skills Agreement for pathfinder sectors in 2005, which was automotive, aerospace, electronics and marine, and we highlighted that the skills shortages were at the top end of qualified, professional engineers and, in particular, technicians. There has been a considerable amount of work done to look at that. One of the key issues was also an ageing workforce and the need to invest in the over-25 semi-skilled and skilled worker.

  Q265  Chairman: Can you narrow it down for us? Are we talking about electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, civil engineers? Where are the real shortages or are there any surpluses anywhere?

  Ms Tomkins: Electrical and mechanical are the key areas for ourselves, but also aerospace and marine are the sectors which will have the worst shortages, as such, but electrical and mechanical are core functions in terms of across engineering.

  Professor Clarke: I am on the Board of Construction Skills representing higher education and I fully support that there is a shortage, but one of the problems with civil engineers is that they do not sit in Semta, they sit in Construction Skills and, in terms of civil engineers, there is indeed a shortage to an extent and for certain branches of civil engineering we are on the Home Office at risk list.

  Q266  Chairman: The college sector really is quite crucial within all of this, particularly delivering Level 2, Level 3 and foundation degrees in this area. What are you doing which is going to be different? Where do you see the shortages and what are you doing about it?

  Mr Elliott: Well, as you say, Chairman, the college sector is absolutely crucial, and we deliver around 120,000 engineering places in education at the moment. In my college, which is quite a large college, we have 4,000 engineering students, including 1,000 apprenticeships and also several quite innovative foundation degrees. It seems to me that the skills shortages occur at a number of levels, including at apprenticeship level, but ranging through to the intermediate level, and I think more attention should be given to supporting some of the new developments in foundation degrees. For example, in my college we have developed a foundation syllabus which links together NVQs, key skills and a foundation degree in aeronautical engineering and, in addition, we have a foundation degree that links together a licence to practise qualification for aeronautical engineers which is vital for aeronautical repair, so I think we do need to pay more attention to some of these more practical routes that can bring people into engineering through different ways and can show them a different view of engineering as we move to try to deal with not only the skills shortages, but the upskilling of many people within some of these industries, especially in our case of aeronautical engineering.

  Q267  Chairman: One of my personal concerns here is that, if you live in the Midlands somewhere and you are near Honda's factory or you are in the North East and you are near Nissan's factory in Sunderland, then there is an obvious tie-in for engineering with some of those large automotive companies. If you live where I live in north Yorkshire where there are a lot of sheep, there are not any major engineering companies, though there are some niche ones, so do we write off that whole group of young people and adults simply because there is not an engineering facility? I do not understand why this is happening at all.

  Mr Elliott: No, I do not think we should. In the Bristol area, obviously there is a significant element of aeronautical engineering, in particular, and still an element of manufacturing, and we are still able to recruit large numbers of students into engineering. We have been working extensively with the schools sector. Every year we run a programme for 800 Year 10 young people working with major companies, AstraZeneca, Rolls-Royce, Airbus, to try to generate greater interest in engineering, and it is possible to motivate people to move into engineering. Despite the overall downturn in student numbers, we have managed to double our intake into full-time motor vehicle courses in a part of the country which is not dominated by the motor industry, so I think there is much more that can be done across the country with young people in this area.

  Q268  Chairman: In terms of these higher-order skills, are we internationally competitive?

  Dr Thompson: Absolutely. Our best scientists and engineers are internationally competitive. If you look at just where our top PhDs and Fellows are finding places, they are finding places not just in the universities, but also in leading companies, so one of the real reasons we have got Rolls-Royce, BAE, a very strong engineering and manufacturing sector in the UK, is because of the skills base in the UK and particularly we see that by industry being prepared to co-invest with us in developing higher-skilled people. A really successful mechanism we have been running for the last 15 years is the engineering doctorate where graduates spend up to 70 per cent of their time in companies getting the skills that then allow them to complete a doctorate, but they also get, because they have worked in industry, much more awareness of business and needs. It has been very strongly endorsed by industry and they continue to put their money in, and we are just looking to recruit a new set of these centres.

  Q269  Chairman: If our Committee went to France tomorrow or to Germany or Spain or wherever, would we find similar pictures in terms of shortages of skills, shortages particularly of undergraduates throughout engineering or not?

  Dr Thompson: I think right across Europe you will find shortages in the power sector, France has particular strengths in nuclear where the UK does not, process is a concern for many European countries and the whole issue of structural engineering is an issue across Europe, so we are seeing a flow of people across the world, but actually, although engineering is more prized as a true pursuit in other European countries, they are suffering shortages the same as we are, so we have discussions with analogous bodies across Europe and we are all seeing very similar problems.

  Q270  Chairman: Why is it that we have got so many people, particularly at technician level, Level 2 and Level 3, with those skills coming to us from Eastern Europe and flooding some parts of our market, yet we have a big shortage? What has happened which has created that sort of imbalance in terms of work flow?

  Ms Tomkins: Certainly England have not supported funding Level 3 skills to develop technicians and apprenticeship funding has only been available for the 19-plus age. We now have DIUS who are going to fund all-age apprenticeships which will actively help develop those workers already perhaps at Level 2 to go on to technician level and complete a full apprenticeship. This was something that was highlighted as a major priority by some of the big companies to have some funding to support the development of people at the technician level and we will hopefully agree that funding offer to companies in our sector with DIUS within the next few weeks.

  Q271  Chairman: In terms of Semta, how closely do you work with universities, colleges and industry? What is the relationship?

  Ms Tomkins: We work closely through the sector skills agreement process. That was a collaborative process that gave some actions for both HEFCE, for the Association of Colleges and for government departments on some of the issues that were addressed by employers in the supply of education and training which highlighted some of the issues about graduates requiring two years' experience before they were really making an impact in the workplace, so there were some detailed actions. We review those with our partners and report back, and we used to report back to the Sectors Skills Development Agency and it will now be to the Commission on that, so there is a lot of joint work going on to address some of those issues on the system.

  Q272  Chairman: What representations have you made to the Government about the nonsensical division between engineering and construction skills? Why have we got construction skills in a separate sort of sector skills council when it is absolutely essential to the work that you should be doing?

  Ms Tomkins: Well, there are 25 sector skills councils and—

  Q273  Chairman: I know. Are there too many?

  Ms Tomkins: I could not possibly comment.

  Q274  Chairman: Why?

  Ms Tomkins: There are different views.

  Q275  Chairman: Go on! Nobody is listening! Are there too many?

  Ms Tomkins: I have not heard the argument about construction and engineering being joined up. We have obviously had some discussions about manufacturing and engineering, as such, but construction, we would say, is a very different sector from high-value added engineering technology.

  Q276  Chairman: Come on, we want straight, short answers! Professor Clarke, are there too many?

  Professor Clarke: There are two things. First of all, on the point about shortages of skills across Europe, there will be meetings like this taking place in Australia, Canada and America right now because they have got exactly the same problem; the shortage of engineers in developed countries is a problem. The second thing about migration into the UK for engineering from the rest of Europe, some of this is driven by a buoyant economy in particularly construction. If you switch on public sector spend on construction, the fact is that you have got to bring people in to support that construction, particularly here in the South East, and it is interesting that one of the things ConstructionSkills have identified is that, if you live in Scotland, you are trained and, if you live in the South East, people tend not to do as much training, so there is a need and that is one of the reasons that people are coming from Europe. In terms of links between the sector skills and the universities, this is developing, but industry has phenomenal links with universities and most of it is unrecorded. We have people supporting students, site visits, data, projects, lectures, all sorts of things are happening, and it is very much about the goodwill of industry working very closely with the universities, but unrecorded, and it goes from the undergraduate level, further education, all the way up through to research. In terms of the sector skills councils, ConstructionSkills have been working jointly with Semta and the other sector skills councils that work in the construction industry, and the reason ConstructionSkills is separate is because many of its professions are not engineers, but they do collaborate and they do hold meetings and joint events for that reason.

  Mr Elliott: Certainly I feel there are too many sector skills councils and I feel there is far too much complexity in the system from the point of view of everybody, especially employers. In terms of links, the AoC has developed a system of skills champions. I am the AoC National Skills Champion for engineering and what we have done is we have brought together a committee of principals who themselves have groups working with the various sector skills councils, so I am beginning to work with Semta across an action agenda to support them in developing the business improvement technique qualification and a whole range of other actions. We are signing a memorandum of understanding between ourselves and Semta and we intend to drive the skills agenda jointly across the sector, particularly at Levels 2, 3 and 4.

  Q277  Chairman: All my professional life, and I think this will apply to most of my colleagues, we have been playing catch-up with skills rather than actually trying to project ahead to see what our needs are for the future. Now, you are in the driving seat, Semta has got a good reputation, if I might say, so what are you doing to look ahead ten years? How will it be different in ten years?

  Ms Tomkins: We have identified a workforce plan for aerospace that they have tested that gives them the projection five years ahead. They are a sector that are able to look at their order book which is very positive. Once we have that, we will be able to enter it along with our Compact.

  Q278  Chairman: To be fair, it takes them ten years to actually build a plane, does it not, so what about the rest of them?

  Ms Tomkins: It does indeed, but we have a number of things coming along, the diploma for the 14 to 19 age group, the engineering diploma starts this September in schools, we have the fourth largest in terms of apprenticeships coming forward—

  Q279  Chairman: But it is all producing stuff that we wanted yesterday rather than what we want tomorrow.

  Ms Tomkins: Well, the Sector Compact will produce very quickly a lot of skilled people because the Government are putting funding behind that, so it is a very positive move.

  Chairman: We will come back to funding in a minute.


 
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