Examination of Witnesses (Questions 262
- 279)
WEDNESDAY 21 MAY 2008
MR KEITH
ELLIOTT, PROFESSOR
BARRY CLARKE,
DR LESLEY
THOMPSON AND
MS LYNN
TOMKINS
Q262 Chairman: Could I welcome our
witnesses to this evidence session of the Innovation, Universities,
Science and Skills Select Committee's inquiry into engineering.
I wonder if I could start with you, Professor Clarke. One of the
themes which is coming through this inquiry very, very strongly
indeed is the massive skills gaps and skills shortages in the
UK engineering field, but engineering, we have also been told,
has got so many facets to it, so many parts to it, so can you
be more specific in terms of where these huge skills gaps and
shortages are?
Professor Clarke:
I think there are two things: there is a shortage of engineers
entering into the profession of engineering; and 50 per cent of
graduates of engineering courses leave the profession within two
years of graduation. That is not a bad thing because that means
that people with engineering skills go into other professions,
financial, teaching and the like, which actually helps the development
of engineering in the UK. In terms of the gaps within the knowledge
of engineering, this is evolving very rapidly at the moment and
indeed the Royal Academy and EPC and others have set up a working
group to look into the future of engineering education, which
includes DIUS, DBERR, Semta, Construction Skills and universities.
The aim is to start to explore how this should develop because
we are sensing that a number of bodies, and industry in particular,
are stating what we need in five to ten years time compared to
what we are producing now. This is really to address the global
challenges of climate change, poverty alleviation, and lifeline
support systems. There is a gradual change which has been taking
place over the years as we are moving from a technology age to
an ecological age which means engineers are going to have to communicate
much more with the public than they have done in the past, so
we are moving into a new era and I think we are the point of change
at the moment.
Q263 Chairman: There always seems
to be this sort of disconnect between, first of all, getting the
intelligence about skills shortages and then actually bridging
that gap into actually producing people to do those jobs. Now,
you have got that specific responsibility as a sector skills council.
Ms Tomkins: We have, yes.
Q264 Chairman: So where do you see
the real problems?
Ms Tomkins: Well, the problems
have been identified. We published the Sector Skills Agreement
for pathfinder sectors in 2005, which was automotive, aerospace,
electronics and marine, and we highlighted that the skills shortages
were at the top end of qualified, professional engineers and,
in particular, technicians. There has been a considerable amount
of work done to look at that. One of the key issues was also an
ageing workforce and the need to invest in the over-25 semi-skilled
and skilled worker.
Q265 Chairman: Can you narrow it
down for us? Are we talking about electrical engineers, mechanical
engineers, civil engineers? Where are the real shortages or are
there any surpluses anywhere?
Ms Tomkins: Electrical and mechanical
are the key areas for ourselves, but also aerospace and marine
are the sectors which will have the worst shortages, as such,
but electrical and mechanical are core functions in terms of across
engineering.
Professor Clarke: I am on the
Board of Construction Skills representing higher education and
I fully support that there is a shortage, but one of the problems
with civil engineers is that they do not sit in Semta, they sit
in Construction Skills and, in terms of civil engineers, there
is indeed a shortage to an extent and for certain branches of
civil engineering we are on the Home Office at risk list.
Q266 Chairman: The college sector
really is quite crucial within all of this, particularly delivering
Level 2, Level 3 and foundation degrees in this area. What are
you doing which is going to be different? Where do you see the
shortages and what are you doing about it?
Mr Elliott: Well, as you say,
Chairman, the college sector is absolutely crucial, and we deliver
around 120,000 engineering places in education at the moment.
In my college, which is quite a large college, we have 4,000 engineering
students, including 1,000 apprenticeships and also several quite
innovative foundation degrees. It seems to me that the skills
shortages occur at a number of levels, including at apprenticeship
level, but ranging through to the intermediate level, and I think
more attention should be given to supporting some of the new developments
in foundation degrees. For example, in my college we have developed
a foundation syllabus which links together NVQs, key skills and
a foundation degree in aeronautical engineering and, in addition,
we have a foundation degree that links together a licence to practise
qualification for aeronautical engineers which is vital for aeronautical
repair, so I think we do need to pay more attention to some of
these more practical routes that can bring people into engineering
through different ways and can show them a different view of engineering
as we move to try to deal with not only the skills shortages,
but the upskilling of many people within some of these industries,
especially in our case of aeronautical engineering.
Q267 Chairman: One of my personal
concerns here is that, if you live in the Midlands somewhere and
you are near Honda's factory or you are in the North East and
you are near Nissan's factory in Sunderland, then there is an
obvious tie-in for engineering with some of those large automotive
companies. If you live where I live in north Yorkshire where there
are a lot of sheep, there are not any major engineering companies,
though there are some niche ones, so do we write off that whole
group of young people and adults simply because there is not an
engineering facility? I do not understand why this is happening
at all.
Mr Elliott: No, I do not think
we should. In the Bristol area, obviously there is a significant
element of aeronautical engineering, in particular, and still
an element of manufacturing, and we are still able to recruit
large numbers of students into engineering. We have been working
extensively with the schools sector. Every year we run a programme
for 800 Year 10 young people working with major companies, AstraZeneca,
Rolls-Royce, Airbus, to try to generate greater interest in engineering,
and it is possible to motivate people to move into engineering.
Despite the overall downturn in student numbers, we have managed
to double our intake into full-time motor vehicle courses in a
part of the country which is not dominated by the motor industry,
so I think there is much more that can be done across the country
with young people in this area.
Q268 Chairman: In terms of these
higher-order skills, are we internationally competitive?
Dr Thompson: Absolutely. Our best
scientists and engineers are internationally competitive. If you
look at just where our top PhDs and Fellows are finding places,
they are finding places not just in the universities, but also
in leading companies, so one of the real reasons we have got Rolls-Royce,
BAE, a very strong engineering and manufacturing sector in the
UK, is because of the skills base in the UK and particularly we
see that by industry being prepared to co-invest with us in developing
higher-skilled people. A really successful mechanism we have been
running for the last 15 years is the engineering doctorate where
graduates spend up to 70 per cent of their time in companies getting
the skills that then allow them to complete a doctorate, but they
also get, because they have worked in industry, much more awareness
of business and needs. It has been very strongly endorsed by industry
and they continue to put their money in, and we are just looking
to recruit a new set of these centres.
Q269 Chairman: If our Committee went
to France tomorrow or to Germany or Spain or wherever, would we
find similar pictures in terms of shortages of skills, shortages
particularly of undergraduates throughout engineering or not?
Dr Thompson: I think right across
Europe you will find shortages in the power sector, France has
particular strengths in nuclear where the UK does not, process
is a concern for many European countries and the whole issue of
structural engineering is an issue across Europe, so we are seeing
a flow of people across the world, but actually, although engineering
is more prized as a true pursuit in other European countries,
they are suffering shortages the same as we are, so we have discussions
with analogous bodies across Europe and we are all seeing very
similar problems.
Q270 Chairman: Why is it that we
have got so many people, particularly at technician level, Level
2 and Level 3, with those skills coming to us from Eastern Europe
and flooding some parts of our market, yet we have a big shortage?
What has happened which has created that sort of imbalance in
terms of work flow?
Ms Tomkins: Certainly England
have not supported funding Level 3 skills to develop technicians
and apprenticeship funding has only been available for the 19-plus
age. We now have DIUS who are going to fund all-age apprenticeships
which will actively help develop those workers already perhaps
at Level 2 to go on to technician level and complete a full apprenticeship.
This was something that was highlighted as a major priority by
some of the big companies to have some funding to support the
development of people at the technician level and we will hopefully
agree that funding offer to companies in our sector with DIUS
within the next few weeks.
Q271 Chairman: In terms of Semta,
how closely do you work with universities, colleges and industry?
What is the relationship?
Ms Tomkins: We work closely through
the sector skills agreement process. That was a collaborative
process that gave some actions for both HEFCE, for the Association
of Colleges and for government departments on some of the issues
that were addressed by employers in the supply of education and
training which highlighted some of the issues about graduates
requiring two years' experience before they were really making
an impact in the workplace, so there were some detailed actions.
We review those with our partners and report back, and we used
to report back to the Sectors Skills Development Agency and it
will now be to the Commission on that, so there is a lot of joint
work going on to address some of those issues on the system.
Q272 Chairman: What representations
have you made to the Government about the nonsensical division
between engineering and construction skills? Why have we got construction
skills in a separate sort of sector skills council when it is
absolutely essential to the work that you should be doing?
Ms Tomkins: Well, there are 25
sector skills councils and—
Q273 Chairman: I know. Are there
too many?
Ms Tomkins: I could not possibly
comment.
Q274 Chairman: Why?
Ms Tomkins: There are different
views.
Q275 Chairman: Go on! Nobody is listening!
Are there too many?
Ms Tomkins: I have not heard the
argument about construction and engineering being joined up. We
have obviously had some discussions about manufacturing and engineering,
as such, but construction, we would say, is a very different sector
from high-value added engineering technology.
Q276 Chairman: Come on, we want straight,
short answers! Professor Clarke, are there too many?
Professor Clarke: There are two
things. First of all, on the point about shortages of skills across
Europe, there will be meetings like this taking place in Australia,
Canada and America right now because they have got exactly the
same problem; the shortage of engineers in developed countries
is a problem. The second thing about migration into the UK for
engineering from the rest of Europe, some of this is driven by
a buoyant economy in particularly construction. If you switch
on public sector spend on construction, the fact is that you have
got to bring people in to support that construction, particularly
here in the South East, and it is interesting that one of the
things ConstructionSkills have identified is that, if you live
in Scotland, you are trained and, if you live in the South East,
people tend not to do as much training, so there is a need and
that is one of the reasons that people are coming from Europe.
In terms of links between the sector skills and the universities,
this is developing, but industry has phenomenal links with universities
and most of it is unrecorded. We have people supporting students,
site visits, data, projects, lectures, all sorts of things are
happening, and it is very much about the goodwill of industry
working very closely with the universities, but unrecorded, and
it goes from the undergraduate level, further education, all the
way up through to research. In terms of the sector skills councils,
ConstructionSkills have been working jointly with Semta and the
other sector skills councils that work in the construction industry,
and the reason ConstructionSkills is separate is because many
of its professions are not engineers, but they do collaborate
and they do hold meetings and joint events for that reason.
Mr Elliott: Certainly I feel there
are too many sector skills councils and I feel there is far too
much complexity in the system from the point of view of everybody,
especially employers. In terms of links, the AoC has developed
a system of skills champions. I am the AoC National Skills Champion
for engineering and what we have done is we have brought together
a committee of principals who themselves have groups working with
the various sector skills councils, so I am beginning to work
with Semta across an action agenda to support them in developing
the business improvement technique qualification and a whole range
of other actions. We are signing a memorandum of understanding
between ourselves and Semta and we intend to drive the skills
agenda jointly across the sector, particularly at Levels 2, 3
and 4.
Q277 Chairman: All my professional
life, and I think this will apply to most of my colleagues, we
have been playing catch-up with skills rather than actually trying
to project ahead to see what our needs are for the future. Now,
you are in the driving seat, Semta has got a good reputation,
if I might say, so what are you doing to look ahead ten years?
How will it be different in ten years?
Ms Tomkins: We have identified
a workforce plan for aerospace that they have tested that gives
them the projection five years ahead. They are a sector that are
able to look at their order book which is very positive. Once
we have that, we will be able to enter it along with our Compact.
Q278 Chairman: To be fair, it takes
them ten years to actually build a plane, does it not, so what
about the rest of them?
Ms Tomkins: It does indeed, but
we have a number of things coming along, the diploma for the 14
to 19 age group, the engineering diploma starts this September
in schools, we have the fourth largest in terms of apprenticeships
coming forward—
Q279 Chairman: But it is all producing
stuff that we wanted yesterday rather than what we want tomorrow.
Ms Tomkins: Well, the Sector Compact
will produce very quickly a lot of skilled people because the
Government are putting funding behind that, so it is a very positive
move.
Chairman: We will come back to funding
in a minute.
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