Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280
- 299)
WEDNESDAY 21 MAY 2008
MR KEITH
ELLIOTT, PROFESSOR
BARRY CLARKE,
DR LESLEY
THOMPSON AND
MS LYNN
TOMKINS
Q280 Dr Gibson: It is usually a good
idea in life to play to your strengths rather than your weaknesses,
so what would the AoC say are its strengths and what are its weaknesses?
Mr Elliott: I think the strength
of the AoC is that it represents over 400 colleges which, between
them, run a very substantial provision of engineering.
Q281 Dr Gibson: Do they work together?
Mr Elliott: They are working together.
I formed a committee of principals of leading engineering colleges
which is the group which will become the sector skills specialist
group for the AoC and that is the group which is interfacing with
Semta to help deliver the agenda around the diploma agenda, around
apprenticeships and around the National Manufacturing Skills Academy.
Q282 Dr Gibson: Okay, so that is
a strength. Now a weakness? I suggested that you did not talk
together, but you may have a formal board that only meets once
every five years and it holds a conference and some people think
that is success.
Mr Elliott: No, I do not think
that is success. I think we are working very closely together.
I think we have to recognise, however, that within the AoC it
is likely that more specialised colleges are going to be the centre
of engineering in many areas and particularly at the sub-regional
level. I do not think it is possible for all colleges to invest
at the level of investment required for engineering training.
For example, at my college, we are about to move into the development
of composite materials which is a major new development both in
aerospace and motor vehicle. That requires significant capital
investment and I think it is very likely that we will see growing
specialisation with key colleges in the sub-regions working with
other colleges, where necessary, and other providers to provide
the training that is required for employers. I do not think it
is possible for all further education colleges necessarily to
be able to provide in every locality the sort of training that
is required for 21st-Century engineering.
Q283 Dr Gibson: That is great for
team work, that sounds good, but have you got a sort of plan to
say to government or government and other organisations how much
you really need to achieve? When you are formulating it at home
where nobody can hear you, you are not in public, what do you
think really needs to happen to make these dreams you have of
working together come true and the policies of working together
because they do not all do the same thing, so you have obviously
got a plan in your head, so how are you going to make it happen
in terms of finances and support, if that is your weakness?
Mr Elliott: Well, I think the
first thing is that there has to be much greater recognition of
the centrality of this sector, not only in manufacturing, but
other forms of engineering, and I think we all are fighting a
battle in terms of that. As part of that of course, therefore,
the funding has to be made available and it does require considerable
investment, long-term investment, to fund engineering programmes
in related areas, and I think in some cases it is not always possible
to achieve that. We are currently planning a major investment
in Bristol, a £40 million investment, to develop a national
centre of excellence in engineering. Now, in order to achieve
that, we have to convince people that this is one of the central
priorities.
Q284 Dr Gibson: What are you doing
about convincing people and who are these people?
Mr Elliott: The major way we hope
to convince people is by forming an alliance with employers, notably
the major employers and the small employers in the area, to actually
convince the learning and skills councils, and indirectly the
Government, that it requires not just rhetoric about engineering
and manufacturing, but it requires hard cash and serious investment
which is long-term investment and it may provide a short-term
fix, but it certainly is an investment in the future of engineering
and manufacturing in this country.
Q285 Dr Gibson: Do you think government
care about engineering and its development and understand what
it is or are you indicating that they do not, despite all your
protestations and discussions? Go on, tell us what you think of
them!
Mr Elliott: I think there is strong
support within government. Obviously within parts of government
there may be other priorities, but I think there is a strong recognition
and we are receiving, in principle, support. I will believe that
support when we receive that support in actual hard cash.
Q286 Dr Gibson: So that is a weakness,
that you think you do not get the support. Are there internal
weaknesses in your organisation that you see need to be hammered
out before you present that kind of unity which even government
cannot deny?
Mr Elliott: I think we would all
recognise that we need to do more to improve the skills of our
staff and, in particular, to make sure that our staff have recent
experience within industry. We are working very hard on that,
but of course, as technology moves forward, we need to continuously
support our staff in being able to meet the latest techniques
and the latest technology.
Q287 Dr Gibson: So why do they not
react in the way you want them to? You suggest that they are over-stretched,
over-worked and over here.
Mr Elliott: I am sure our staff,
who are in general very good, would say that they were over-stretched.
I think we are talking about the need for an alliance between,
in our case, the further education sector and the employers to
be able to provide these opportunities, and I think it is a two-way
street. We do need more co-operation from employers, not only
in this area, but also in providing the places for apprentices,
so I think the agenda is one of joining with employers and working
with them to improve both the facilities for our staff, updating,
but also the facilities for students as they move through the
system.
Q288 Dr Gibson: What benefits are
there going to be from this diploma that you mentioned? What will
we see that is different because there is a diploma?
Mr Elliott: I think a diploma
in engineering is a major advance. I sit on the National Diploma
Development Group, and I think that the whole reform of 14 to
19 education which the diploma agenda is central to is crucial
in doing something about that lost generation of young people
who are not achieving five GCSEs, and in the City of Bristol almost
60 per cent of young people do not achieve five GCSEs, and I think
the diploma agenda is really opening up a possibility of a valuable
applied route. In terms of engineering, it is crucial that it
retains the rigour in science and maths and it is crucial that
it is able to replace the well-regarded B-Tech qualifications
which are understood by employers, but I do think the diploma
agenda is a very sensible agenda and we are starting 70 students
in the engineering diploma with local schools in September. We
are one of five colleges that have the permission to run all the
ten lines and we are a very keen advocate of this, of trying to
move and develop new applied routes into engineering which take
people of high levels of ability into engineering in a different
way, people who are motivated by a different form of learning
and not just motivated by academic learning. Coming back to the
point I made before, I really do think that more effort and more
money should be put into expanding the more applied forms of higher
education, foundation degrees leading to apprenticeship routes;
they can be highly successful and I think they will make an enormous
mark on engineering if they are given the resource.
Q289 Dr Gibson: Is it too early to
claim success for this diploma scheme or are there successes that
you could just briefly tell us about?
Mr Elliott: I think it is too
early to claim success, but the fact that we have managed to get
four schools to work with us with 70 students for September, I
think, is a success and I think that people are being motivated
within the Kingswood Partnership, which is the consortium I am
talking about, to develop across the five diploma lines, but there
is a very good take-up of engineering and I think that is very
encouraging, given that engineering is not necessarily the priority
subject for many young people.
Q290 Dr Gibson: Let me turn to Semta
now. You have said that provision and support for skills must
accommodate the needs of small firms, and your phrase is that
"flexing training provision and support" could have
an important impact on this. What is that all about?
Ms Tomkins: Well, for small companies
releasing people for training, it is an issue if you only have
a small workforce, so one of the key areas is that the training
provision could be more flexible, bite-sized, as small employers
are not able to release large amounts of people for training and
they are not also able to put in in-company training, so we do
need training providers to be far more flexible to the small employer.
Q291 Dr Gibson: In this country anyway
it is now all about small firms, small numbers of people, under
25, and I do not mean age, I mean numbers, and they are up against
it. They do not like releasing people, they just want the fast
buck, the fast profit, and they do not join trade unions either,
so they do not get that kind of support, so they are struggling
all the time to stay alive, as it were, and to produce the product
that is going to be UK plc-approved, so why should they take days
off?
Ms Tomkins: I think one of the
key things, and we have done some work with small companies, is
to get them to see the business benefit from investing in skills.
We have done a key piece of work in the East Midlands with the
LSE and a number of companies have seen massive improvements in
their performance and profitability because they have invested
in skills, particularly in Business Improvement Techniques. We
have worked with some of the colleges and Rolls-Royce supported
it by giving some workshops, so it is about facilitating all the
services to come together to address small-company need which
is very different from large-company need.
Q292 Dr Gibson: Suppose you look
at parts of this country where you do not have the Rolls-Royces
of this world having been engrained in the culture there, say,
Cambridge, for example. There are lots of small businesses there,
no trade unions to speak of around those businesses, no pressure
to train people. Is that true or does it just happen, that the
young people there who become the entrepreneurs see the long-term
gains or are they just looking for the long-term gain when a big
pharmacy industry takes them over?
Ms Tomkins: Well, there is a lot
in there.
Q293 Dr Gibson: There is a lot in
there, yes. Tell me about the areas then which are less successful.
Ms Tomkins: The North West and
the West Midlands have the largest number of small firms in the
English regions and certainly some of the positive ways we work
with the small companies is clusters, so they come together. We
talked about Yorkshire and the electronics cluster in Yorkshire
came together because jointly they could look at attracting young
people into the sector, and so there are 500 companies, very small
ones, but they come together, they have had support, we work with
them, they will get involved in the diploma and collectively they
will support work experience, so Yorkshire are getting involved,
but it takes support to bring small companies together and that
is where the sector skills council can bring the agencies to support
a cluster, and clustering works very well.
Q294 Dr Gibson: It is not a word
we have heard a lot. David Sainsbury was very keen on clusters,
but it has not been suggested as a way forward. Is it still part
of the Government's agenda?
Ms Tomkins: Well, clustering in
our biosciences Sector Skills Agreement is one of their major
issues, that, particularly for the small entrepreneur companies,
if they work together, they can share resources, they can have
a hybrid of ideas.
Q295 Dr Gibson: Excuse me just asking
this one about science cities. Do you know about science cities?
Ms Tomkins: We do, yes.
Q296 Dr Gibson: Tell me about them
and say it loudly because I want some people to hear this.
Ms Tomkins: Well, I am probably
not the expert to talk about science cities.
Q297 Dr Gibson: Does it work? Is
it a good enterprise?
Ms Tomkins: The feedback we have
from our employers is positive about what science cities are achieving.
Newcastle is a science city and there is a lot of investment going
in to support some of the developments.
Q298 Dr Gibson: Does it help in the
pursuit of the things you are trying to do in terms of support
and training?
Ms Tomkins: It provides a focus
certainly for companies in looking at the development, links to
graduates and those sorts of areas.
Q299 Chairman: When we were in Yorkshire
last week, we visited Electronics Yorkshire who were saying exactly
the things that you have just said to Dr Gibson which was about
networking and, quite frankly, they were not interested in what
the colleges could provide. They said that the colleges are not
providing what our employers want. They are wanting tailor-made
courses which are specific to a small employer, so you can get
in, get your training, and get out very, very fast. Now, should
we scrap the colleges and just go straight in to new forms of
delivery? Would that be much more effective? Do not get apoplectic!
Professor Clarke: I am used to
it, Chairman!
Ms Tomkins: Certainly that was
big view in our SSA that FE provision was not fit for purpose.
We developed a National Skills Academy for Manufacturing, and
it is working with both colleges and organisations, such as Electronics
Yorkshire, to get their programmes accredited and available, so
work is going on and colleges have a role to play, but there is
also the need for—
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