Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1-19)
DR ALAN
GILLESPIE CBE
5 MAY 2009
Q1 Chairman: Could I welcome sincerely
Dr Alan Gillespie, the Chair-elect of the Economic and Social
Research Council, to this, the first pre-appointment hearing that
this Committee has had, and could I immediately apologise to you,
Dr Gillespie, for having to rearrange this session at fairly short
notice because of the business of the House. Thank you very much
indeed for making yourself available today. What attracted you,
first, to the post of chair of ESRC? How did that come about?
Dr Gillespie: I have entered a
stage of life where I am not any longer doing one full-time job,
it happened a few years ago, doing a variety of things. One particular
responsibility I have been carrying for the last seven years finished
last autumn, so when this was advertised my eye turned to it and
something intuitively told me this was interesting and attractive
to me and I should make myself a candidate. Why did I do that?
First, I am a social scientist, born and bred, in some sense;
I had the privilege of having seven years at Cambridge where after
a first degree I did a PhD in Economic Geography, and indeed at
that time had funding from the Social Sciences Research Council.
That is going back 35/40 years. So somewhere in my own formation
data, research, analysis and social sciences were a very critical
part of my education and formation, and reflectively I would say
that much of what I have had the opportunity to be involved in
over my career has been based on data and analysis and thoughtful
research. So I am attracted to this because I believe deeply in
the role of research; I am broadly interested in the workings
of our society; and I think the work of this Council is critical
in the allocation of capital and its steering of the research
agenda. So a mix of those. Plus the fact that I have been involved
in the public sector and have chaired a couple of public bodies
gave me a sense that I could make myself available.
Q2 Chairman: Could I ask you bluntly,
if your Alliance & Leicester job had not fallen through, would
you still have wanted this post?
Dr Gillespie: I will never know
the right answer to that because had I continued at the Alliance
& Leicester I would have commenced last July, and we all know
what a busy autumn and winter it was for everyone in the financial
services sector. I suspect I would have been very deeply absorbed
in that and probably would not be putting my hand up for another
public appointment, but we will never know.
Q3 Chairman: I want to see whether
this was second prize, really?
Dr Gillespie: I do want to say
that I undertake another public role for a group of governments,
of which the United Kingdom is the lead government, and so I suspect
if I had been doing Alliance & Leicester and carrying the
weight of that I would have not put my hand up for this, given
I am already doing one other thing in the public sector.
Q4 Chairman: And do you feel that,
given the wide range of the responsibilities you have, you can
fit this in with relative ease?
Dr Gillespie: I have no doubt
at all that I have the capacity to do this and can do it with
the fullest commitment.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
Q5 Mr Cawsey: As the Chairman said,
obviously we know about your background and it has been much more
focused on banking which has been much in the news recently—welcome
to our world—but your background is much more banking than
research, so what do you think you can bring to this post, given
that that is the nature of your previous work history?
Dr Gillespie: You are right in
saying my mainstream career has been in banking, and I am still
proud to say I have been a banker for thirty years, even though
the profession has been somewhat discredited. But let me address
that. So much of what I have done in the financial community is
based on data, analysis and research, so I have worked in a world
of rational thought and detailed analysis in my professional life.
Whether helping companies or governments in the markets one has
to go in well-briefed and well-researched on whatever the topic
is, so, as I said in the preliminary question, I took out of my
PhD and academic life a set of skills and research that I have
carried into my life in banking, but also I would say, sir, that
over the last 14 years I have had a parallel life in a number
of public sector positions, all of which again have been built
around the allocation of capital for different things and each
decision is taken around the facts and data and analysis, so I
have much to learn in all of this, but I think both my business
life in the private sector and my various exposures to the public
sector have taught me the value of research.
Q6 Mr Cawsey: Is it a bit about leadership
as well, and setting a strategic vision for the future?
Dr Gillespie: Yes. I have in a
number of roles had to work alongside the chief executive, or
work with a committee or a board, and try and help steer the strategic
vision, whatever that might be. I have had a chance to do that
in the context of Northern Ireland and I am currently doing that
in the context of the agenda for the poor countries.
Q7 Mr Cawsey: You have said a bit
about the other roles you have played, particularly in the public
sector. To what extent have you been involved with social research-led
organisations in the past and, moving on from that, obviously
this is a role which is going to put you in touch with lots of
academics and your own experience is relatively limited in that
regard. Do you think that would be a cause for concern, either
to you or to the people you have to work with?
Dr Gillespie: Let me take the
second part of your question, how do I fare in the company of
academics and around universities? My connection with Cambridge
has continued for forty years and really what I am going to say,
and I think it is important to say this, is that unusually for
someone who has been in the financial markets in the City I have
had quite a connection with universities, and that in turn is
part of what has attracted me to this role. So my connection with
Cambridge has continued; I was very involved in the formation
of the business school and sat on the advisory board of the Judge
Institute for six years and saw the challenges of setting up a
business school in that university; I have been appointed an Honorary
Fellow of Clare College Cambridge, which is not a distinction
given to many people from outside the academic world, and I serve
on boards at the University of Ulster in Northern Ireland, and
at Queen's University Belfast, so right now I am engaged with
three universities and therefore I feel very at ease in the company
of academics, and I am someone who is rigorous and I do my homework,
and I think I can get myself into most discussions.
Q8 Mr Boswell: Before I begin my
questions, can I thank you very much for coming in, Dr Gillespie,
and I think for the utmost good faith I ought to declare that
I am a member here of a parliamentary group on pneumococcal diseases
and we have had some dealings with GAVI and therefore, indirectly,
with the International Finance Facility for Immunisation, though
I think we have never personally met but I thought I should put
that on the record. If I could turn to your ideas for the future
of ESRC, to what extent do you think the Council's priorities
should reflect those of the government?
Dr Gillespie: Well, there is an
interesting balance here between the issues that are of critical
importance to the nation and society that indeed government will
be scrutinising and trying to guide thoughtful research towards
at an over-arching level, and yet at the same time what I believe
in, the need for absolute independence in terms of who drives
the research agenda up through the Councils, and this Haldane
principle which has served the United Kingdom well for many years
I want to take up and maintain and reinforce.
Q9 Mr Boswell: So you would not be
frightened of falling out with ministers if you felt you were
right?
Dr Gillespie: I would try not
to but I am someone who will certainly stand up and challenge
if I do not think it is going in the direction it should, and
I come back to this importance of the over-arching independence
of the Council, both in terms of giving guidance to the academic
community and also calling for research themes. Let it be bottom
up.
Q10 Mr Boswell: I have a bit of a
fast ball now because obviously this is the beginning of the process.
Do you have a view yet about the strengths and weaknesses in the
Council? Is the balance about right? Is there anything you would
like to change?
Dr Gillespie: As part of my due
diligence I had an interesting conversation with the new Director
General of Research Councils, Adrian Smith, and I asked him whether
the ESRC appeared on his radar, and his answer was, "Only
for the good reasons; I don't wake up worrying about it",
and I found that very reassuring, that this is a research council
that is extremely tidy in its governance, compliance and process,
and although I have not yet joined the Council I have looked through
a year's minutes of its meetings and I found a very tight operational
structure, so I think from that perspective it is well run. I
am also impressed by the scope of research that it is funding
across our universities. £170 million a year is going across
many projects which cover the whole range from very core basic
research in quite intellectual methodological themes through all
sorts of things that are absolutely applied, and my burden for
the future would be that the ESRC has got to be funding research
that is addressing the questions facing our nation today and that
are relevant to where we are. We have come through now almost
24 months of just unthinkable change in the way this country operates
with huge cost both in financial terms and human, and the ESRC
has got to say what comes out of that in terms of the right themes
for research and inquiry over the coming period.
Q11 Mr Boswell: One technical question:
it is an ESRC priority to improve the success of responsive mode
grants. This does not seem to have happened yet. Have you a view
as to why that should be?
Dr Gillespie: Success, as defined,
means that many people who apply for grants do not get them, and
there can be two reasons. One is there can be many more people
just interested in getting to ESRC's budget to have a piece of
it, and that is good, I do not think there is anything wrong with
there being lots of demand for money, but equally ESRC has to
be extremely discerning in the way it allocates. I have had a
preliminary conversation with the Chief Executive about this,
and I know he is committed to getting the success rate to responsive
funding requests up in the coming years, and I would certainly
want to promote that.
Q12 Mr Boswell: Can I turn quickly,
because we are short of time, to the question of stakeholders?
You have on the one hand consultation with the sector and stakeholders
in that sense, as well as alongside the Government, and you did
touch on that in answer to my first question. There is also the
fact that you are, as it were, in partnership with other councils.
There is a lot of cross-council work because of the nature of
the social sciences and their contribution. How do you see those
sorts of networks evolving, or areas where you could develop them?
Dr Gillespie: Well, I have observed
that the networks are far more complex and wide-reaching than
they used to be, and the way in which the research councils are
cross-collaborating around certain cutting edge themes is absolutely
necessary. In the world of stakeholders it is invidious to suggest
who is more important than anyone else but, at its core, the ESRC
is here to serve the social scientists in our universities and
academic institutions and help fund their good work, and I think
we need to be constantly cognizant of the themes they are bringing
up and the sort of things they feel they should be working on,
both in the training budget around PhD research studentships and
in funding departments, but at the same time, beyond the academic
community, what I believe this should be all about is producing
findings from research that are useful out there, useful to you
folks in government as you define policy, useful to business leaders
in the broader business but also useful to the third sector, to
the evolving community, the NGOs.
Q13 Mr Boswell: Do you think there
is a role perhaps for ESRC to get other academics who are scientists
to take social sciences seriously?
Dr Gillespie: I do not really
have a feel for that yet but my sense is that social science is
taken seriously. Everyone understands how important wages are
and crime, health and lifestyle, this is what makes society, and
I come across few pure scientists who in any way lack respect
for the social sciences. Every science, every branch of education,
has to keep waving its flag, and one of the things I would like
to see is that ESRC becomes maybe better known and talked about,
with the findings of ESRC funded research getting disseminated
through better communication.
Q14 Ian Stewart: Can I press you
a little bit on this business orientated research approach? Even
today there have been reports in the newspapers criticising the
government for being too business orientated in education. What
do you think about the statement that people make that we should
be pursuing knowledge for its own sake rather than just for business?
Where do you stand on that?
Dr Gillespie: I would want to
say that there is a critical role for basic or, let's say, unapplied
research alongside applied research. If you do not do basic research,
whether it is in social sciences or medical sciences, you do not
move on to applied research, and basic research or core research
is, in my mind, research which has not yet become applied, so
in the social sciences that might be in obscure forms of statistical
methods or whatever; you have to do that work before the output
of that can ever have any application. So, as we all understand
how important that is in medicine, it is equally important in
social sciences.
Q15 Ian Stewart: Philosophy?
Dr Gillespie: Yes, indeed, in
its link to the humanities. We are training people here to use
their minds but, at the end of the day, I would also say that
we need to be sure that there is the right balance in terms of
output that is capable of informing our society, and society is
not just government or business or the social sector, but all
of those. I would not want ESRC to be thought of as just serving
a business community; that would be unnecessarily narrow.
Q16 Mr Boswell: May I come in with
this question? In a sense ESRC is taxpayer-funded, though not
exclusively, and its main stakeholders are within the United Kingdom.
You have a background I have already referred to with an interest
in international development, and as it happens I have too, but
do you regard that as being an area that you would like to see
developed within the Council, and, more generally than the specific
development side, do you see the international arm or perspective
of the Council as being something you want to grow?
Dr Gillespie: Yes, indeed, because
I do not think we live in a world where an observation on this
or that of the social sciences is unique to any one nation, and
therefore cross-border research ought to be --
Q17 Mr Boswell: Comparative research?
Dr Gillespie: Indeed, yes. One
of the things I have learned from the work of the Council is that
it is now possible for British academics to get into research
clusters with academics throughout Europe and the world, and in
no way are they cutting themselves off from an ability to get
funded from the ESRC. The mechanisms are there in place for that.
As far as international development is concerned I am very heartened
by the fact that the Department for International Development
has put a line of its research funding through the ESRC, so far
maybe £15-£20 million, to promote research around the
questions of international development. That to me is at the heart
of application and the agenda for poverty alleviation. We have
had some centres of excellence in the United Kingdom in terms
of international development—Sussex, Liverpool, SOAS—but
I would like to see many more universities encouraging their researchers
to research the Africa agenda and so on, so I am very much behind
that.
Q18 Mr Marsden: Dr Gillespie, I wonder
if I could just talk to you a little further about research funding
and research funding formulae, and I am encouraged to do so not
least on the back of what you just said but also what you said
earlier. I think you said in conversation with Adrian Smith that
you have been impressed by the scope of research across universities.
Now, of course, we are in the process of transition because the
research assessment exercise for 2008 which has just been concluded
is going to be the last of its type and HEFCE in November 2007
published proposals for a new assessment framework and a research
excellence framework, and RCUK, specifically on that occasion
in respect of social research, said they were worried that the
proposals did not take into account the impact of non science
research, social research valued by users such as government but
not published in academic journals, so that is now under review.
Does it concern you that we might be entering a period where we
are trying to judge research on too narrow a metric basis?
Dr Gillespie: I would say at this
stage I am not an expert in being able to compare the RAE and
the new research excellence formula.
Q19 Mr Marsden: Let me reassure you,
Dr Gillespie, that after several years of looking at this subject
I am convinced that very few of the people involved are experts!
Dr Gillespie: Let me try and have
a response to this along the following lines. I think the RAE
in the United Kingdom took us down a path we had not been down
before causing universities to focus on research and raise their
standards, but clearly it has been too narrowly calibrated around
publication in the learned journals, and I think the whole move
towards research excellence feels like a good outcome in taking
that forward, where the quality of research in our universities
will be gauged on a broader basis. As far as funding is concerned
I was pleased that in the Budget last week it seems that the funding
to the Research Councils has been ring-fenced and protected through
to the end of the CSR period in 2011, so I am pleased to join
the Council at a time when there is not a challenge to its funding,
it is there for another two years, but what we will have to do
a lot of work on, to come to your question, is in understanding
how the framework for research excellence is going to identify
outstandingly good departments versus those that are less good,
yet balance that with equitable access to our pot of money.
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