East Midlands Development Agency and the Regional Economic Strategy - East Midlands Regional Committee Contents


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 118-139)

SARAH FOWLER, CHARLOTTE GAULT, MADDY JAGO AND BETTINA LANGE

8 JUNE 2009

  Q118 Chairman: Welcome to you all. You have all sat in and seen the previous session. It would be really helpful if you could all introduce yourselves in turn.

  Sarah Fowler: My name is Sarah Fowler. I am the Area Manager for the East Area for the Environment Agency, Midlands Region. I lead all our operations in Derbyshire, Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire, and I work very closely with my colleague who covers operations in Northamptonshire, Lincolnshire and Rutland.

  Charlotte Gault: I am Charlotte Gault. I am Head of Regional Conservation Policy for the Wildlife Trusts in the East Midlands, and I am here on behalf of East Midlands Environment Link, which is a grouping of environmental non-governmental organisations.

  Bettina Lange: I am Bettina Lange. I am a Regional Policy Officer for the Campaign to Protect Rural England. I am also here to represent EMEL. Virtually since emda was set up, I have been trying to establish good relationships with it, with varying results. However, we will come to that.

  Chairman: I am sure that we will.

  Maddy Jago: I am Maddy Jago. I am the Regional Director for Natural England in the East Midlands.

  Q119 Chairman: Maddy, you are fairly new in your post, is that right?

  Maddy Jago: I am, yes. I hope that I do a good job today to represent Natural England's views.

  Q120 Chairman: Let us start with the sustainability duty. Nowadays, there is a duty on regional development agencies to take sustainability seriously as an issue. I have an impression that perhaps people in the environmental movement do not think that the agencies are fulfilling that duty. Is that right? Bettina, perhaps you had better start on this point.

  Bettina Lange: Yes, it is quite true that there is a duty for the RDAs to—I am unsure how best to put it—situate the regional economic strategies within a sustainable development context, including the UK's sustainable development strategy and so on. However, that duty is compromised, not only by the way that emda has sometimes gone about fulfilling it but by certain impositions from central Government, in particular what the RDAs are actually being assessed on in relation to their performance. The key performance indicators are not sustainable development indicators; rather, they are an increase in GVA and GDP, which are very conventional economic indicators. As far as we understand it, those indicators are structurally incapable of reflecting whether or not the environmental side and to some extent even the social side of sustainable development is being advanced or hindered. So that is the fundamental problem.

  Maddy Jago: I would like to take a step back from that position. When I was preparing for this session, I wanted to reflect on our understanding of sustainability at the present time. I went back to the Brundtland Commission, which provides probably the best-known definition of sustainability and also provides a useful context for this session now. It is the definition that calls for development that meets "the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs." That definition will be familiar to all of us. I should also say that our evidence is very much within the context of understanding where we are now, but it is also concerned with where we want to get to. The original definition of sustainability looks at three pillars. To summarise the view about where we are now, the RES, as it is constituted, really looks at trade-offs between those three pillars. There  is the idea that, if you take a bit out of the environment, you can put a bit back somewhere else. I think that a fundamental rethink is needed to understand the environmental capacity of the region and what the constraints are within that capacity. I think that that is where we are in terms of wanting to clarify that, to go forward with the new regional strategy. I can give you some examples, but that may come up later.

  Q121 Chairman: Give us a couple of examples now.

  Maddy Jago: We know that climate change is an issue. But in the East Midlands, out of all the regions, we have the greatest risk of flooding along the coast and river valleys. In the context of Government policy and all the other things, what we have to do is to try to combat that. It is reasonable to expect our regional strategy to have a vision, in terms of the requirements by which it is constituted, to try to address that—to bring parts together to engage with that. That gives us a point of reference as to where we are. At the moment, we are in a situation of looking at trade-offs—development and giving something back to the environment. Our position is that the money in the bank is in deficit—we are not situation of borrowing, but in a situation where we have to try to repay the loan.

  Q122 Chairman: Sarah, now that we have heard about flooding, I guess you want to talk about it.

  Sarah Fowler: I must comment, yes. Just to begin, it is important to me that the onus is on every single one of us, every single public sector organisation, to consider sustainability and take on that duty.  Reflecting on the earlier conversation you had with the institutions, the closing remarks about their contribution were about social and economic well-being. I noted that they did not comment on environmental well-being. But I see them as essential to help us promote a sustainable future using their technology, innovation and expertise.  Looking more broadly, the environment shines through in the RES. The environment is part of the East Midlands brand—when you look back to when the RES was developed, it was part of that brand. There are some good elements in there about economic success to deliver quality of life, which is about a prosperous and sustainable region and ensuring sustainability. There is also the index of sustainable economic well-being—all positive in the RES—and we want to ensure that we work with those. But as Bettina said, we need to see that in the context of the drivers that emda is working with. Their licence to operate is around GDP and economic values. How can we work with them to help them see the broader picture?  Also, the East Midlands is the only region without a functional sustainable development champion. The RES has got SD in it, and it is in its implementation and monitoring that we have to work closely with emda to make sure that success is achieved. My view is that where there are strong partners, working at a project level, and using consultants, then we deliver some very good work with emda on sustainability.

  Charlotte Gault: One point Maddy made was about environmental capacity as a key measure that we need to understand—about what the region's capacity to support development of whatever kind is. That gives us the opportunity to turn around how we look at development, in terms of real environmental limits, and also the potential to enhance the region's environmental capacity. I agree that we are in deficit on many aspects of the environment at the moment, so a degree of enhancement is needed to reach an acceptable level. In some areas, there is potential for considerable enhancement, which then improves quality of life.  I agree that there is a lot that is good in the current RES, and we certainly saw when that was developed that that was a major improvement on the previous RES. However, we have some concerns about how that can be delivered, especially in terms of integration across the three pillars of sustainable development and, so, the ability to achieve win-win-win outputs. The two points that I would make about that are that, in the RES implementation plan, only delivery by statutory sectoral organisations is covered—the NGO sector was never asked to provide information on its delivery and, although we have offered to provide that to emda, it has not been taken up. So there is a real question about how it is possible for people who might want to deliver in the region even to be aware that we might be doing something relevant and could work with them or assist in them in some way. The other aspect is the lack of active facilitation to enable cross-sectoral and cross-theme delivery in how the RES is implemented.

  Q123 Chairman: Will you take us on, Bettina and Charlotte, on that? You have made the offer to emda; it was not taken up—will you describe the history a bit?

  Bettina Lange: The history is quite long actually. The offer was made by EMEL member organisations—for example, in their various submissions to the drafts of the regional economic strategy—but also at specially convened meetings, which emda did agree to have with us. The meetings were either on the index of sustainable economic well-being, where I was the person who specifically made an offer, also making the point that there are people with some intellectual capacity outside the universities—they might even be working for environmental NGOs. That went nowhere. Another meeting that I remember was specifically about the evidence base—obviously we were concentrating on its environmental aspect. Again we made a specific offer of help, because it seemed that emda were, quite understandably, not really equipped to deal with that side of the evidence base very well. So we were not criticising them for that, but it was never taken up.  We found later on, and in fact at one point the people at emda stated this, that they expected what they called the voluntary sector—that is actually what we call the social voluntary sector, or in other words, One East Midlands or Engage, as it was then—to provide input into the environmental evidence base. They expected that sector to liaise with us to get the input. That is so indirect, and we had made a direct offer. We to this day do not understand why emda wanted to go down that indirect route. Having said that—Charlotte may want to elaborate—as far as particular areas of the evidence base are concerned, emda has now moved a little more in the direction that we think would be more constructive, particularly in relation to biodiversity.

  Charlotte Gault: We found with the evidence base as developed for the current RES that there was no understanding or awareness by emda that for the environment in particular, perhaps in contrast to the socio-economic sectors, a lot of relevant information is held outside the statutory sector.  For example, information on wildlife biodiversity is held by local wildlife trusts and individual expert volunteers who go out and record a lot of those things in the countryside. They might work with the local wildlife trust or the local biological record centre, which could then manage that information. However, not all the information is held in one place through accessible and simple structures. We are aware of that and have always offered to work with people and help mobilise as much of that information as we can. There are structural deficiencies at the moment in terms of having an infrastructure in place that would allow this to be mobilised easily, but we are keen to work on that and are doing so.  Last time around, our experience was that a significant quantity of information outside the statutory sector was simply not understood. Currently, we are hearing about the development of an evidence base to support a single regional strategy in the future. I have been encouraged so far, and the emda has been willing to speak to us about this, particularly in the context of the biodiversity factor. It has outlined a timetable of production for the evidence base and has been open about the limitations of the information currently available. There was a recognition of the paucity of environmental information once the previous evidence base had been put together, and we have to move forward from there. It has been made clear to us that there will be a consultation on a draft evidence-based document, to which we are encouraged to respond. We have an idea of the timetable, and at this stage, I find that quite hopeful.

  Sarah Fowler: When you talk about the environment, it is worth bearing in mind that this is a broad sector that covers a broad range of issues. I think that Bettina and Charlotte commented correctly on the issues regarding biodiversity and environmental capacity.  Charlotte stated that it is difficult to collect evidence for those issues, because of their broad and disperse nature, and that is part of the problem. To give another perspective, our involvement in the RES was on the resource protection and management side, whether that involved wider resource protection, water resource management or water quality management. In those cases, the information is more evident and available. There is one authoritative voice— ourselves—and we are heavily involved with emda in providing that evidence. That is an example of how it can work, and emda is receptive to that. However, it is also about how we work with emda. Part of this is about understanding the diverse nature of the environment agenda and helping emda to understand that. There is certainty in some places, but not in others.

  Q124 Chairman: Sarah, you made a point earlier saying that there was no champion in the East Midlands. Who should champion sustainability in the East Midlands? Should it be emda or another body?

  Sarah Fowler: It is interesting. We have worked closely with the Government Office and with partners to look at sustainability issues in other regions to see what happens there. It is stark that, in the East Midlands, there is no champion body. For example, there is Sustainability North East, Sustainability South West and Sustainability West Midlands. My region cuts across to the West Midlands, and there is a strong body there working on issues at a senior level across the regional partners, whether that is the Environment Agency, Natural England, the Government Office or the development agency. A part of what is lacking in the East Midlands is that senior voice provided by all partners working together. I do not mind where that voice comes together, but we need to have a place where that senior level debate can happen with the emda board and with the Government Office. That is critical.

  Q125 Chairman: Give us a prescription. How would you do it? What would you advocate?

  Sarah Fowler: I want us to be able to have conversations at senior level about sustainability issues with the emda board, the Government Office for the East Midlands and, in the current set up, the regional assembly. Those discussions should happen on a regular basis at board level.

  Q126 Chairman: Is that your view, Maddy?

  Maddy Jago: I would support that. An example that does not cover the full breadth of the agenda but perhaps encourages us in the right direction is that of the Environment Agency, which recently convened a regional climate change partnership at that sort of senior level. That is the sort of model needed for sustainability, and through the regional strategy we have the opportunity to provide the umbrella strategy document. However, we need the resources and expertise to feed into that. I want to comment on the evidence if I may.

  Q127 Judy Mallaber: I have a last small point. I am curious. How come a sustainability organisation has been set up in other regions but it did not happen in the East Midlands? Do you know how it is set up in the other areas?

  Sarah Fowler: I cannot necessarily comment on the history of the East Midlands. I have moved across from the Environment Agency in the Anglia region, so I know how the East of England operates. When the RES was produced in the East Midlands, the environment was seen as the brand of the East Midlands, and a core thing that fed through it. It was, probably therefore, not seen as necessary because it was just dealt with. As we move towards the implementation of the regional economic strategy, the need for this senior level engagement has become all the more important, but does need developing further in the region.

  Bettina Lange: There are number of reasons for that. One of the reasons is due to the differences in the regional set up. In the West Midlands, for example, what was effectively a sustainable development round table was also the coalition that contained the voluntary environmental sector. There was more integration than there was in this region. Some years ago, back in 2000, there was a sustainability round table, and a report that was done on it said so. It was a useful talking shop, but that is all it was. With that history, people in the region, partners perhaps who could have got things moving, were less keen. Another difference is that, in other regions, the RDAs were more supportive and part-funded it. That has not been happening here.  I just want to comment on what Maddy has said. I do not think that our sector—the East Midlands Environment Link—would be quite so happy simply to take the climate change steering group model, because that involves exclusively statutory agencies. There is no voluntary sector involvement at all. We do not think that that is a good model. It needs to be much more inclusive than that. The other thing is that it needs to have a dedicated secretariat, independent of any of the participating agencies. We would actually regard the Government Office as independent in that respect. It needs funding and that is another reason it did not happen in this region. When we started thinking about it seriously, there were constant messages from the Government that there would be no funding. Well, if you start from that position, you are not going to set something up that do not have funding for.

  Q128 Chairman: Maddy. There was a point hanging in the air.

  Maddy Jago: Yes, just on the evidence. I wanted to stress that Natural England is an evidence and specialist body providing specialist advice on the natural environment. Our written submission was rather critical in tone. It drew on the experience of our founding bodies. You will appreciate that Natural England was set up in 2006. I did not want to dwell on the negativity of that. I wanted to use it as a sense of where we want to get to. The guidance both for the RES and looking forward to the new strategy makes it quite explicit that Natural England would have a partnership role, rather than what we have experienced as being more of a statutory consultee. A partnership role means that we can use our specialist evidence approach very much to provide the basis for the new strategy. We have not had any engagement on that to date, so it is ringing some alarm bells for us. It is very helpful to have the opportunity to raise that now.  Just a note on our experience, we are just about to launch our state of the natural environment report for the region. That provides quite a good example of bringing stakeholders together to look at the key issues and then to publish the evidence for the region. We hope that provides an example of where we can fit into the new integrated arrangements.

  Q129 Chairman: Just to take us forward, Charlotte, you made this point about the history, but on the new strategy, you felt that things were changing and that there was a more receptive atmosphere. Is that your and Maddy's view?

  Charlotte Gault: It is my experience up to the present moment. I could not make any predictions about how it will continue. What is positive at the moment—especially following discussion with a member of emda staff who is working on evidence development—is that there is an understanding of the complexity of information in the environment sector and a willingness to work with us on that. Where that takes us will obviously be absolutely crucial. I think, as I have mentioned, that it is really key that we move forward on developing the mechanisms for mobilising what is mostly local data into regionally relevant information.  We have a lot of very useful systems in place but they are not all perfect. We are working to make them a lot better. I think we need to be able to work with the regional bodies to make them better from both ends, so that they function to meet everybody's needs. Whether or not that happens is yet to be seen, but we will do our best.

  Q130 Chairman: How can we make that happen? What is the mechanism to make it happen using all this information and pulling it together?

  Charlotte Gault: The key thing is joint working between emda, the regional observatory and key stakeholders. There is a basic element of capacity, of course. I was involved in some work looking at mechanisms for mobilising biodiversity evidence. We worked up something of a proposal, but at the time there was no obvious funding source and, almost more importantly, nobody had the capacity to develop a bid even if there had been an obvious funding source. That opened a very useful discussion on, and gained recognition of the need for, basic development.

  Bettina Lange: One quite fundamental issue is emda's corporate culture, which is often different, in my experience, from the way in which individual members of emda staff act. They are quite willing to engage with us but then the corporate culture intervenes and it does not happen. We need to achieve a change there.  May I just use one example to illustrate how I see the difference? It concerns my own organisation. About two years ago, CPRE commissioned research from the university of Northumbria on people's experience of tranquillity. The research was qualitative by the nature of the issue. Two different groups of people gave researchers their experiences of what is most conducive and most detrimental to tranquillity. You would have expected to get widely different views but, strikingly, you did not. It was actually very consistent indeed. Consistently, the top negative thing was road traffic noise, and there were even really specific things, like people saying that broad-leafed woodlands are more conducive to an experience of tranquillity than pine forests. It was quite interesting.  I put those examples to emda officials to try to get them to see that there is merit in qualitative evidence—that you cannot put things into numbers immediately. emda, obviously and quite understandably, employs people who like number-crunching. If they cannot do that, they are not quite sure what to do. I tried to get that across but I did not get anywhere.  By contrast, when I mentioned the tranquillity research at the examination in public of the regional spatial strategy, the inspector, by the following day, had looked at the CPRE website, and come back to me with questions.

  Q131 Mr Laxton: I want to raise the issue of the annual reporting mechanism through which you can inform the economic strategy's progress. Does it happen at all in terms of feeding into the annual reporting mechanism?

  Charlotte Gault: I can give you a simple answer from the NGO sector. It is simply not something that we are engaged with.

  Sarah Fowler: In terms of the Environment Agency's involvement, the environment chapter in the RES talks about a number of indicators to measure progress. One of the key indicators is about river water quality, so we will feed information into that. There is a wider debate to be had as to whether that should be the only indicator, or whether we should look at wider indicators, but that is how we tend to feed in.

  Maddy Jago: My understanding is that we would have been involved with an annual stakeholder discussion, but went away with some frustration about a lack of ability to discuss in detail progress on environmental health. Stepping back from that and picking up on Sarah's point, when the RES was being produced, we suggested and proposed that SSSI condition—site of special scientific interest—should be a measurement included as an indicator, which did not get any further. I am afraid that there is a slight sense of frustration there, but again, I want to emphasise that rather than dwelling on that, we want to use it to help us move forward more productively.

  Bettina Lange: I have just one comment, which may or may not relate—there may be a story in the fact that I am not sure whether it relates. I have often been asked to participate in what I would call reputation audits, usually carried out by consultants on behalf of emda. Some of those conversations have been quite long and some quite open; some had very closed questions indeed. You were not able to express what you really thought had gone well, and so on. I thought that was a separate exercise done annually. It may have fed into the annual report, but if it was—

  Q132 Mr Laxton: It was not made clear to you that that was the case.

  Bettina Lange: No.

  Q133 Chairman: May I just pick up on the SSSI issue? That is a DEFRA target, is it not? Progress is being made, but the target is not being met. It would make sense to have such an indicator at regional level, would it not?

  Maddy Jago: It would certainly seem to us to make sense. It would provide the linkage with PSA targets that is also expressed in the guidance as desirable, and possibly help in matching some of the expectations in the national strategy for sustainable development. I do not have the answer why that was not included. It is certainly something to discuss for the future.

  Chairman: We have talked about the index of sustainable economic welfare, and I know that Judy wants to pursue that a bit.

  Q134 Judy Mallaber: I would like to know what it is. I know in broad terms, but there seem to be different things in the different evidence that we have had from emda and in what you are all saying about what is good and what is not. Could somebody say what they think?

  Bettina Lange: I am not an economist, but my understanding—I looked at the various versions, because I was very interested in it—is that it is an attempt to translate a wider range of human welfare indicators into something that can then be measured and aggregated into an index, so that in the end you can put a figure to it and measure whether a region, area or whatever is increasing well-being or not. The index was first developed quite a long time ago—I think it was in 1974 or something like that—in the United States, but the history in this country is that the New Economics Foundation and certain academics took it upon themselves to develop a national one. Then emda had the excellent idea of asking them and Tim Jackson to develop a regional version, which we greatly welcomed at the time. We said in our submission that emda did pioneering work. It went around the country to the RDAs trying to get buy-in, and it got quite a lot, although it did not extend to all the RDAs. It then said in its response to the SNR consultation that that was the way to go.  The difference between conventional economic indicators and the ISEW is that the ISEW is wider and takes social indicators into account, including factors such as the importance of community and family. The first version of the ISEW was quite weak on environmental indicators; it just included local pollution. They have worked it up a little bit more, so we are approaching more meaningful indicators.  We would like to be involved in that work, but have not been so far. We would really like to be involved, and there are ways of doing that—they are not straightforward, but there are ways. We would like to see factors such as landscape and so on included, because they actively contribute to well-being; we know that. Also, in the long term, we would like to see that sort of framework, provided it is comprehensive enough, replace conventional economic indicators, because that way the economy serves people, rather than the other way around.

  Q135 Judy Mallaber: Bettina, you said that at one point, you had been offered direct involvement in developing the index. I know that some of the other organisations are not sure whether, as developed, it covers everything that we want. Would the others like to comment on where the index has got to and who is doing what to develop it?

  Bettina Lange: Natural England has been involved.

  Maddy Jago: We agree that this is pioneering work, and it is to emda's credit that it is taking the lead. I endorse the fact that this work is going on in the region and that other RDAs are looking at it and want to pick it up. Our own board has also looked at it with great interest. So it is at that level of trailblazing. The index is supposed to provide a composite indicator—a direction of travel—to give us a closer reference point in terms of sustainable development than the traditional GVA measurement, which is the requirement as things stand. emda itself agreed that the environmental portion of the index was somewhat weak, and we are working with the agency to scope other environmental factors that could be brought in. As Bettina says, it is largely a measure of CO2 at the moment, and we need to bring in some of the positives that can underpin positive development in the region. That is work in progress, and a contract is out at the moment, which will come back shortly. That will give us some idea of how we can go forward.

  Sarah Fowler: For information, the index currently includes environmental factors such as local environmental pollutants, loss of agricultural land and natural habitats, and the costs associated with climate change, so it is quite narrow, and I endorse the need to look at broadening the environmental aspects. I also agree that it is trailblazing, and it is great that this is happening in the east midlands and that people are looking to the east midlands as the leader on this. The index has great potential value, but my question is how far it is driving positive environmental change in terms of policy and decision making. There is great potential to use it in that way. I was very pleased that emda, in its response to the sub-national review consultation, said that it wanted to use the index, instead of GVA, to provide a wider measure. It is unfortunate that the other RDAs did not do that. Its great value can be in looking forward, and it can be used much more broadly.

  Q136 Judy Mallaber: Who has done the work on it up until now? Has it just been officers in emda? What input has there been from outside?

  Bettina Lange: It has been a collaboration between the New Economics Foundation and Tim Jackson at Surrey university, who has been the key academic. Natural England is also doing work on it now.

  Q137 Judy Mallaber: You are asking for more environmental factors to be put into the index. How does that tie in with the fact that there seem to be limited indicators in the RES at present? Will the two match each other at any stage? You said that there was only one indicator in the RES at the moment. Paddy asked about SSIs. Is there any crossover at all? Would you like to see a crossover between the targets in the RES and the indicators going into the index?

  Bettina Lange: There is very little crossover so far. We would like to see a lot more, and this is a real opportunity for the new single regional strategy. If we had a sustainable development champion body, that is the kind of work that it might want to take on.

  Chairman: We have got that message.

  Q138 Judy Mallaber: Basically, are you telling us to tell the Government to make this happen everywhere, or to take up the East Midlands Model?

  Bettina Lange: That would be even better.

  Chairman: That is a positive thing. Let us turn to another difficult area—aviation. There is a big airport in the region. Bob, do you want to do this?

  Q139 Mr Laxton: Charlotte, your organisation said in its written evidence that there is: "a clear tension between emda's welcome sustainable transport initiatives and its unqualified support for an expansion of activity at East Midlands Airport and its lobbying in favour of... expensive road schemes" such as the dualling of the A46 and the A453. What progress has emda made on sustainable development since its creation?

  Charlotte Gault: May I pass that question to Bettina, who is our expert in EMEL on transport issues?

  Bettina Lange: Is your question specifically about transport-related issues or is it wider?

  Mr Laxton: No, transport-related issues.

  Bettina Lange: I would say that it is a very mixed picture, although there is, of course, an important national factor in that picture, which emda cannot be held responsible for. The picture is mixed because, on the one hand, emda has moved on a lot in its thinking about transport and travel, particularly in areas such as travel to work. There is evidence—this is anecdotal evidence; if there are figures I have not seen them, although I have not searched them out either—that the travel plan that emda committed itself to seems to be working, judging from how emda staff get to places when we have joint meetings with them. emda wrote into the RES a commitment to manage travel demands. It has also funded a number of studies in that area and recently it funded a project aimed at reducing CO2 in transport.  emda has also been very supportive of initiatives to move more freight by rail, or even by water. I say "even by water", because normally the response to the suggestion that we should move more freight by water is, "Well, we did that in the 18th century and that is no longer relevant". However, emda was prepared to co-fund quite a comprehensive study into the potential for water freight. emda also bid through Productivity TIF, or the transport innovation fund at the time, to get gauge enhancements from Felixstowe, and it got money. There is a lot of really good practice.  The big hole, or the elephant in the corner, is emda's unqualified support for the expansion of activity—it does not necessarily support physical expansion—at East Midlands Airport, because air travel is a significant and rising contributor to climate change. Of course, the airport also causes a lot of road traffic, with people travelling to and from it. As far as passengers are concerned, I think that more than 90% of them travel to the airport by car and the figure is similar for the staff who work there. Given how the transport links work, it is unlikely, even with the best will in the world, that that situation will shift substantially. However, you could argue that is the part of emda's activity that is simply implementing Government policy.


 
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