Examination of Witnesses (Questions 400-414)
JOAN RUDDOCK
MP AND MR
CHRIS LEIGH
14 JANUARY 2009
Q400 Chairman: There will be another
million people, will there not, by 2021 or 2022, who will be fuel
poor? So it is not just prices.
Joan Ruddock: You are referring,
I presume, to the increased costs of the climate change—
Q401 Chairman: It was in the report
from the Climate Change Committee, which indicated this additional
one million people who were going to be fuel poor—out-with
the 2016 target period, in fairness. In other words, the problem
is going to get worse rather than better because of the demanding
target set by the Committee—or, in fact, by the Bill.
Joan Ruddock: It is a calculation
that they themselves made that from, I think it was, 2015 onwards
there would be costs very obviously that had to be met by the
population in some form. So if it is not general taxation paying
for those measures then it will add, through the various routes
that are proposed, to the cost to households. Having said that,
of course, it will depend on the Governments-of-the-day or days,
as we progress towards that period of time as to what compensatory
measures they decide to take or not to take.
Q402 Paddy Tipping: We are looking
at about 4.5 million people who are not on the gas network who
are particularly vulnerable, mainly in rural areas. What might
be done for them, because a lot of them are heavily dependent
upon oil and prices have shot through the roof?
Joan Ruddock: Absolutely, and
it is a great concern to me. It is a good policy that we had within
Warm Front that people could get a very expensive oil central
heating system if they had no form of heating, but I am deeply
concerned that they are now having to pay enormous prices—and
I have had quite a lot of letters about this—and there is
nothing that can be done to ameliorate that situation. So looking
for alternatives for the hard to treat properties, particularly
where people are off the gas mains, is a priority, and it is all
part of the new thinking that is going on. We have been investigating
ground-source heat pumps, air-source heat pumps and thermal solar,
and there is a pilot programme that is being undertaken by Warm
Front. So we would look to see what possible measures can be added,
with particular attention paid to that category of people that
you refer to.
Q403 Paddy Tipping: Could a tailor-made
package of micro-generations become available at the moment—
Joan Ruddock: It is conceivable.
Again, the costs are significant. We have to ask, again: "Where
can we do the most as quickly as we can to the benefit of the
most people?" I am very, very conscious, and I have personal
knowledge of such properties, of the fact that people in these
situations where they are off the gas grid have the least options
and can suffer both the highest deprivation and the highest prices.
Q404 Paddy Tipping: In areas of high
deprivation—inner city areas where, typically, there are
blocks of flats—surely, combined heat and power has got
a role to play here. How can we bring that on?
Joan Ruddock: I think you will
find (again, I keep referring to these wonderful consultation
papers) that the Heat and Energy Savings Strategy, that sort of
facility, possibly in a block of flats at a community level, is
the future. This is the future. With renewable technology at local
levels, much can be done. Of course, we have talked about heat
but the fact that heat takes so much of our energy and could be
delivered in very, very different ways is, again, something that
we are going to be looking at very, very seriously and planning
for, for the future, to deal with that.
Q405 Mr Williams: I understand you
are concerned about these properties, but there are certain communities
that are on a scale where actually getting mains gas to them is
still a possibility, but the costs are very high. I just think
that money invested there would take a lot of people out of fuel
poverty, because, as you said, the buildings themselves tend to
be difficult to insulate. So they are suffering from a whole range
of issues that push them into fuel poverty. However, working with
National Grid to get some subsidised scheme to bring these communities
on the mains would be a huge step forward which would also encourage
developers who are, perhaps, developing new houses to use mains
gas rather than putting in other facilities.
Joan Ruddock: I saw your colleague,
Lynne Jones, shake her head at that point! I sympathise with the
shake of her head and with your question, but I do think, as we
go forward planning new developments we do need to ask ourselves
whether it is not possible to deliver to the new developments
renewable sources of energy that are entirely localised. There
is much to be said for that in security of supply and certainly
in terms of greenhouse gas emissions. So there is still a role
for bringing mains gas to certain communities, and indeed one
of the things I should have mentioned is that under the 2008-13
gas distribution price control Ofgem has incentivised bringing
mains gas to communities, which we think will lead to about 20,000
new connections in about 400 communities. So in the short term
bringing mains gas in that way is a solution, but I do think increasingly—and
this is what will be explored in the consultation paper on heat
and energy for the future—we do need to look at localised
generation through renewables.
Q406 Lynne Jones: When are the consultation
papers going to be out?
Joan Ruddock: Our hope is that
they will be out next month.
Q407 Lynne Jones: The Government
has imposed stronger regulations on energy efficiency of new homes,
but there is a problem about enforcement. What is DECC doing in
working with other departments to ensure that is more effective?
Joan Ruddock: This is something
that has not crossed my desk, and because it is within CLG I will
have to write to you. I have not got an answer for you, and I
do not suppose any officials have either. No.
Q408 Lynne Jones: In relation to
the rented sector, we have got Decent Homes but that is a very
low standard of energy efficiency. That programmes ends in 2010
when 95 per cent of social homes are supposed to be up to those
standards. What are your thoughts about the post-Decent Homes
standard, in terms of SAP rating? Does DECC have a view on what
programmes ought to be instituted in social homes? Also, in the
private sector, what impact is the Housing Health and Safety Rating
scheme having on fuel poverty levels? Is there enough enforcement
of that requirement?
Joan Ruddock: To give you any
comprehensive answer, again, we had better write because, again,
we are dealing here with policies within CLG. What I can say is
that despite the fact that we might all like to see social housing
being even more energy efficient, it is, by comparison, more energy
efficient than other sectors, and the Decent Homes programme has
provided very substantial—hundreds of thousands—measures
that have led to greater energy efficiency, and the overall SAP
standard is above other sectors.
Q409 Lynne Jones: Generally speaking,
those in rented accommodation are more likely to be on lower incomes,
so it needs to be targeted.
Joan Ruddock: Yes, indeed. In
terms of where we are in any sector, when we look to meet those
greenhouse gas emission targets for 2020 and 2050, whatever improvements
we have achieved we know we will have to revisit. That is why
zero carbon homes, new builds, for 2016 are so important, because
clearly we have got to get to a point where we say "Enough
is enough" and we only have to build to the highest standards.
With a lot of the retrofitting that is done today there will have
to be additional measures because we have to, effectively, reduce
our emissions by such a degree. As to what are the thoughts on
post-Decent Homes, that is for another department, and I would
have to write to you.
Q410 Chairman: Minister, just one
thing: could you refresh my memory as to what co-ordinatory mechanism
currently exists within government to bring together all the departments
who have a finger in the fuel poverty pie?
Joan Ruddock: The co-ordinating
mechanism is an inter-ministerial group—
Mr Leigh: An inter-ministerial
group that meets from time to time.
Q411 Chairman: "That meets from
time to time". The reason I ask—
Joan Ruddock: Please, I have only
been in this job just coming up for three months; I have not had
such a meeting. I am working all hours looking at absolutely everything,
and I can assure you that as I do this review process that I am
undertaking (and I think I may have said that we are employing
a new director to lead on this), clearly, I will need to meet
with colleagues; there will be bilaterals, and, I am sure, once
we have got some meeting material before us, we will want to explore
this with our colleagues.
Q412 Chairman: It sounds like that
has just arrived!
Joan Ruddock: I am being told—and
I could not possibly have known this—that there is, apparently,
a meeting planned for April. There you are.
Q413 Chairman: The reason I asked
for it is that it seemed obvious—and you were kind enough
to indicate that you were going to have to write to various people—that
if this problem is to be tackled properly in the round then there
has to be a proactive group within government to actually interplay
in terms of the interaction of the policies that you have touched
on.
Joan Ruddock: Sure.
Q414 Chairman: I am reassured to
know that already you have in your diary a date which cannot be
missed. Minister, thank you very much indeed for giving evidence
to us. There is certainly a lot in the forthcoming attractions
column, particularly in terms of the consultation paper, and I
hope that our report itself will be a contribution to your exercise.
Mr Leigh, thank you for your supporting role. Can I also thank
you both for the information that you are going to write to us
about, and obviously if there is anything further that you want
to contribute in those additional written submissions we would
be delighted to hear from you. Thank you very much indeed.
Joan Ruddock: Thank you.
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