Examination of Witness (Questions 140-159)
MR JOHN
DYSON
27 OCTOBER 2008
Q140 Chairman: In your evidence you
say there is, "... however, a greater tendency towards boar
taint which can affect 5-10% of British pork which is clearly
a quality issue."[2]
Tell me what you think the industry ought to do about that.
Mr Dyson: Boar taint, as I understand
it, occurs when animals are matured longer. That happens when
the pressure comes on from a financial point of view. There are
two issues, as far as I understand it. One is that you do not
allow the animals to mature as long. I was speaking to an expert
on this matter yesterday. He said to me that one or two of the
old breeds that have come in and are starting to be used have
created this problem as well.
Q141 Chairman: One of the issues
which the industry made very clear to us that was central to the
economics of the pig industry was the maximum utilisation of the
carcass. Given that in the catering side of things there is perhaps
more flexibility to use different cuts of the pig, is there anything
you believe the hospitality industry is doing to address that
issue?
Mr Dyson: If you look at the chefs
on TV these days, they are beginning to use more and more cuts
to try and show what can be done with the rest of the carcass.
Yes, work is being done in that area. As the economy is going
the way it is and people are buying down, people will buy bacon
joints. They will buy premium sausages and that sort of thing
as opposed to buying anything more expensive.
Q142 Chairman: You have just given
me a description of some of the things. Let us come back to your
industry. Are you aware of any parts of the industry which are
positively following programmes which are addressing this very
central issue of utilisation of the carcass? Is there somebody
you know who is doing something special that says, "We are
trying to help the industry by utilising more than just the prime
cuts"?
Mr Dyson: It is not in mainstream
catering but certainly some of the restaurants are beginning to
use different parts of the animal and show what can be done to
use different parts of the animal to put on people's plates that
can be quite tasty and that they can enjoy. There has been a move
in that direction but it is limited in its volume.
Q143 Chairman: Even Mr Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's
recent programme in which pigs' trotters featured largely has
not yet broken the mould in encouraging people in the hospitality
industry to follow suit?
Mr Dyson: If people like Hugh
are doing things like that, people will follow it inevitably but
whether it is going to produce the volumes you are looking for
I am not absolutely certain.
Q144 Dan Rogerson: We have talked
a little bit about provenance and people's interest in that. What
responsibility has the hospitality industry in ensuring that customers
are aware of provenance and ensuring that welfare standards are
clearly marked up in catering outlets?
Mr Dyson: The legal requirement
from a labelling point of view on provenance is not to mislead
the customer. That is the important thing. Therefore, the issue
around provenance in the catering industry has been taken on in
marketing. In Scotland, I went up to talk to Richard Lockhead,
Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs, where they have set up a
pig task force. We have been engaging with the Scottish Government.
They are doing some research at the moment on what consumers want
in terms of provenance. We are involved in that process. Probably
a way forward is to find out what consumers want, what the industry
can do in terms of best practice and then promote that best practice.
I think that is a way forward as well.
Q145 Dan Rogerson: That is looking
at the demand there is for this sort of information. Where the
word "British" is used for example, what controls are
there on people in the industry to ensure that that is British
reared rather than imported?
Mr Dyson: If you say it is British
and it is imported, you are misleading the customer and therefore
you can be prosecuted by Trading Standards.
Q146 Dan Rogerson: The difference
between processing and rearing?
Mr Dyson: At the end of the day,
you have to decide what is British. Is it where it is born? Is
it where it is slaughtered? Is it where it is cut up? What consumers
understand by "provenance" is a critical issue. In fairness
to the Scottish Government, that is the basis of some of the research
that is going on, to make sure that consumers are aware. What
consumers really want to know and what they expect is what people
are looking at.
Q147 Dan Rogerson: It is very much
what is coming from consumers rather than any discussions you
have had with the industry, with government or anything like that?
Mr Dyson: It is part of the process
that we are engaging in in terms of the UK with, in this case,
the Scottish Government about engaging in best practice; but before
you go to that end you want to establish what consumers are thinking
and wanting. That is a good way to go forward.
Q148 Chairman: I think Mr Rogerson
had his question informed by a pack of back bacon which Tesco
produced. It says on the label, "Produce of Britain".
Work was done on meat supplied to the producer to produce this
pack in Britain but then, in the fine print, it says, "Produced
using pork from the UK, Denmark, Holland or Sweden. Packed in
the UK for Tesco stores." Unless you read the fine print,
you might think that everything in it was British but, in fairness,
the pack tells a different story. Given that your members do things
to the raw material before it becomes a meal, we were wondering
whether they describe that as British when in actual fact it might
contain a variety of raw material input as per the pack.
Mr Dyson: It is always going to
be more difficult with a meal because a meal will have several
constituents in it. You could say where the meat content of that
meal had come from and where you bought it if you know where the
local farmers produced and reared it. A lot of restaurants do
that now as a marketing opportunity. They will do that across
a species and I am sure you have seen it as well in several restaurants,
where they will identify that.
Q149 Mr Drew: Have you any examples
of good practice in marketing within your own Association, where
there has been a real attempt to segment the industry to maximise
what maybe both British interest in joints of meat and so on?
Who is doing it and are you part of it, or has this been launched
by supermarkets or whatever?
Mr Dyson: We have been in discussion
with what was the Meat and Livestock Commission now for two to
three years, if not longer, in terms of their best practice guidance.
A lot of our members do take that on, particularly in relation
to beef. As far as pork has been concerned, I cannot say that
until recent times that has been the issue. We have taken this
up in Scotland following the Scottish issue and we will take it
across several species. It seems quite reasonable that if there
is pressure in England that will probably follow.
Q150 Chairman: Do you have any supply
chain relationships within your industry where particularly big
caterers will have a relationship with the processor and with
the primary producer? If so, what are the benefits?
Mr Dyson: The large contract caterers
definitely do have relationships. They are shortening the supply
chain. They have more direct communication with the primary producer.
There is no doubt about that. The benefits are that you can understand
better how the industry is operating its production and therefore
understand what the problems and issues are and work together
to produce solutions, rather than in isolation just at the end.
Q151 Chairman: If that occurs, is
there any evidence to suggest that people who have that potentially
beneficial relationship are more likely to offer more than pork
and beef from local sources?
Mr Dyson: I gave you an example
of Compass as somebody who promoted English pig meat through "Best
of British" and they definitely have closer relationships
with their suppliers because they are larger. There is a greater
opportunity for that to happen in those cases.
Q152 David Taylor: In your submission,
which is admirably concise and helpful, the final paragraph says:
"The structure of the English pig meat industry could also
be modified to adopt elements of the co-operative model used in
Denmark and Holland ...".[3]
Which elements did you have in mind and why are you promoting
that idea?
Mr Dyson: Because we think that
by farmers working together instead of in splendid isolation we
will be able to gain benefits from investing in the properties
on the farm, in the units, and to take elements of best practice
in there. We think that could make the industry more competitive
and we think the work that the English—
Q153 David Taylor: Is there an oxymoron
in there? You talk about the industry being competitive. I guess
you mean with other European countries. Are not farmers notoriously
competitive and even contrary? How would you suggest that they
be encouraged to develop those qualities which would allow them
to cooperate within the industry?
Mr Dyson: I do not think I can
comment on the attitudes of farmers. I am not a farmer. I do have
friends who are farmers and I am not about to call them contrary.
I would take the view that by sufficient persuasion, if they could
see the benefits of this, like all business people, they will
see a way through it and still keep their competitive nature and
yet, at the end of the day, take the maximum benefit out of it.
Q154 David Taylor: You state quite
clearly in your submission that you believe best practice is not
being readily and swiftly adopted by producers within the UK industry.
Why do you think that is? Is it the cost?
Mr Dyson: I think it is due to
financial pressures that have occurred over the last 10 years.
People are trying to pay off their overdrafts. The reality of
life is it has been tough out there for a long time, which is
why we have lost the industry, which is why we are in the state
we are in now.
Q155 David Taylor: We are back to
the poor old taxpayer. You talk about all this being accommodated
by fiscal measures to support the industry. What did you have
in mind? A pig tax of some kind?
Mr Dyson: If the industry needs
to invest then clearly investment allowances should be there.
I believe the pig species is the only species that has not received
subsidies. I think beef and lamb have received subsidies over
the years. Why should not the pig industry receive the same?
Q156 David Taylor: By "invest"
do you mean in equipment or housing or stock?
Mr Dyson: Yes. You would want
a pig farmer to restock every 10 years. How many are restocking
at the moment?
Q157 David Taylor: They will be able
to set a fair proportion of those costs off against tax, will
they not?
Mr Dyson: Yes, if they are making
any money.
Q158 David Taylor: Do you think it
should be an up front capital allowance, 100% perhaps, in the
year of investment?
Mr Dyson: Yes, to give them an
opportunity because they have not made the money. We are in a
situation where they need to be financially viable. We need to
invest in our pig farms.
Q159 David Taylor: What sort of costs
do you think might be associated with investment support or fiscal
measures of that kind?
Mr Dyson: I could not give you
a figure. I will go away and look at it if you want me to, but
I am not going to guess.
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