Examination of Witnesses (Questions 95-99)
BILL RAMMELL
MP AND DR
JOHN JENKINS
4 MARCH 2009
Q95 Chairman: Minister, thank you for
joining us today. I am glad to see Dr Jenkins with you. As you
know, the Foreign Secretary wrote to our Chairman, Mr Gapes, this
morning advising us of a significant change in the Government's
policy on engaging with Hezbollah. You may recall the Committee's
report of some 18 months ago on global security in the Middle
East. We said at paragraph 120:[1]
"We recommend that the Government should engage directly
with moderate Hezbollah Parliamentarians. The Government should
continue to refuse to engage with the military wing of Hezbollah."
We are pleased that the Government, having initially rejected
our recommendation, have changed their policy in line with the
Committee's recommendation. What brought about that change of
policy?
Bill Rammell: It was clearly your
recommendation. There has been an ongoing debate. Your recommendation
was part of that. We have reconsidered the position in the light
of more positive developments in Lebanon, such as the formation
of the National Unity Government, in which Hezbollah is participating.
For that reason, we have explored establishing contacts. There
was a first meeting, of which you may be aware, where a Conservative
delegation of MPs and peers visited the Foreign Affairs Committee
within the Lebanese Parliament. One Hezbollah Member was present
for that discussion. We will seek further discussions. Our overriding
objective within that is to press Hezbollah to play a more constructive
role politically and move away from violence. We keep those things
under review, we consider the circumstances and what is happening
on the ground and we listen to all sorts of voices, including
yours.
Q96 Chairman: We hope that that change
of policy bears fruit. To extend that theme, you may recall that
the Committee also recommended that it would be wise of the Government
to consider opening up dialogue with those elements of Hamas that
are prepared to renounce violence and recognise the state of Israel.
Do you see the change of policy towards Hezbollah being followed
in the near future by an equivalent change of policy towards Hamas?
Bill Rammell: No, I do not think
that there is an analogy. There are very clear Quartet principles
that we have urged Hamas to sign up to on recognising Israel's
right to exist and rejecting violence, as well as previous Palestinian
commitments. That does not mean that dialogue, albeit indirect,
is not taking place. The Arab League, as you know, has mandated
Egypt to talk directly to Hamas. Particularly at this sensitive
juncture, where the debate is taking place, led and facilitated
by Egypt, about Palestinian recognition, the clear view from the
Egyptians on behalf of the Arab League is that that dialogue should
take place through Egypt and not through other parties. I think
that that is right, but I also think that it is right—this
is what the Government and I want—to get to a position where
we can engage directly with Hamas. However, for that to happen,
there must be substantive movement towards the Quartet principles.
Chairman: We shall move on to the international
response to the violence in Gaza in recent weeks. Sir Menzies
Campbell.
Q97 Sir Menzies Campbell: Before
we come to that, Minister, notwithstanding your answer of a moment
ago, do I take it that the Government still accept that there
is no prospect of any meaningful settlement that does not have
within it provisions to which Hamas can subscribe?
Bill Rammell: We want Palestinian
reconciliation, and we want all parties within the Palestinian
firmament to sign up to the principles of a peaceful settlement
and to the Middle East peace solution. Yes, I want every party
to be able to do so, but we are not going to get the peaceful
outcome that is so desperately desired by so many people unless
there is that commitment to peace, to a two-state solution and
to a recognition of the right of the state of Israel to exist
alongside a Palestinian state.
Q98 Sir Menzies Campbell: Thank
you. May I ask you to consider the relationship, if any, between
the events of 2006 in Lebanon and Israel's decision to take military
action in Gaza in December 2008? You will recall that there was
considerable controversy about the attitude of the British Government
at the time, in particular, the steadfast refusal of the then
Prime Minister to accede to calls for an immediate ceasefire.
You will also be aware that some commentators believe that the
initial response, particularly of the European Union, to Israel's
military action was somewhat disjointed. Do you subscribe to the
view that because of the initial attitude in relation to the action
towards Lebanon in 2006, Israel was encouraged to take the action
that it did in relation to Gaza, on the assumption that it was
likely to be met by a similarly disjointed response?
Bill Rammell: No, I do not think
that that is the case. People may have a view about the stance
that we or our European partners took towards the events in Lebanon
in 2006, but this is not Lebanon 2006. Our actions and those of
the European Union have not been the same. There was speculation
in the run-up to Christmas about Israeli intentions and actions.
We and other partners in Europe made it very clear that we were
opposed to military action. The Foreign Secretary spoke to the
Israeli Defence Minister just before Christmas and made our view
clear. He said that we were not in favour of military action for
a variety of reasons, one of which was that it risked reinforcing
the position of Hamas. You cannot extrapolate whatever view people
took from what happened in Lebanon 2006, and say that that is
the reason why the Israelis took the action that they did just
after Christmas.
Q99 Sir Menzies Campbell: If the
Israelis did not extract anything from their experience in Lebanon,
did the British Government extract anything? Should distinctions
be drawn from the way in which this Government under the present
Prime Minister responded, compared with the response of this Government
under the previous Prime Minister?
Bill Rammell: If you are serious
about government and foreign affairs, you always learn from experience.
1 Eighth Report from the Foreign Affairs Committee,
Session 2006-07, Global Security: The Middle East, HC 363 Back
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