Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240-244)
THE RT
HON TONY
BLAIR
1 JUNE 2009
Q240 Mr. Hamilton: Thanks, Chairman.
Tony, you mentioned earlier about the materials needed for the
reconstruction of the sewage treatment plant. Indeed, we saw the
remains when we were there. I was one of the people who went into
Gaza two months ago. We were told by Isaac Herzog, the Minister
with responsibility for reconstruction in the Israeli Government,
that they had sent materials over, but that parts of them had
been returned to Sderot and Ashdod as rockets. Have you come across
that at all?
Mr. Blair: My view is that you
can get materials in there that are used for the purposes for
which they are supposed to be used. Obviously there is a debate
about that. You will have seen when you saw the remains of the
rockets at Sderot that they are cobbled together from bits of
material. I would not advocate allowing materials in for reconstruction
if I did not think that they could be used properly and delivered
to their proper place. I think that they can be, and that is the
view of most of the international community that has looked at
this.
Q241 Mr. Hamilton: May I move on
quickly to the issue of settlements? One problem for a contiguous
state of Palestine is the myriad illegal settlements in the West
Bank; there are hundreds, if not thousands. I think you would
agree that that is a barrier to a Palestinian state. More and
more are being constructed every week and every month. How can
we explain the Israeli Government's failure to stop that? Is enough
pressure being put on them to stop it? Is it completely beyond
their control even though they provide policing for those settlements?
Mr. Blair: Secretary of State
Hillary Clinton could not have been clearer the other day. The
position is absolutely clear and there is a lot of pressure on
them. It is important sometimes to explain to people why this
is an issue. To go back to the very first question that Sir John
asked me on whether a two-state solution is viable, it is not
viable if settlements continue to expand and new settlements continue
to be developed. In my view, it is important to find a way through
this. It would be a lot easier to find a way through in the context
of a credible negotiation for a two-state solution. Other issues
could be dealt with in that context that would help with the settlement
issue. There is no doubt that for a two-state solution to work,
there will have to be a major shift in that policy.
Q242 Mr. Hamilton: So, do settlements
have to be removed before a peace agreement is possible, or is
the negotiation towards a peace agreement the catalyst to remove
the settlements?
Mr. Blair: At the very least,
pending the outcome of negotiations, the facts on the ground cannot
shift in ways that make a Palestinian state even harder to negotiate.
In the Annapolis process, people sat down and talked about all
the issues for the first time. In some areas, including in relation
to territory, they got rather further than people realised. For
the past nine months, for all sorts of reasons to do with difficulties
and politics on the Israeli side, there was not much that could
be done. (None the less), they sat down and looked at issues to
do with land swaps in and around the '67 borders and so on. Such
issues can be dealt with, but they cannot be dealt with if there
are continuing settlements that prevent a contiguous and properly
functioning Palestinian state. That is why there has been all
this focus on the E1 area and the need not to develop it because
if it were developed, it would make it very hard for Palestinians
to move around the West Bank.
Q243 Mr. Purchase: Just thinking
about the position of the EU, if there were to be trade sanctions—some
say that that might bring the Israelis to their senses on one
level—is there sufficient agreement among EU states? Would
that solution, or sanction, commend itself to the members and
would it have any effect on the Israelis if we were to say that
trade agreements were null and void until they behave?
Mr. Blair: I think the desire
at the present time is to see if we can get this thing going again.
June will be a critical month in this whole business. President
Obama's speech in Egypt will extend far more broadly than the
Israel-Palestine question. I have no doubt at all that it will
make clear again the seriousness of the undertaking that America
is engaged in in respect of this. There will be further rounds
of discussions and talks because a lot of speaking is going on
between people now. At some point over the next few weeks, a way
forward will emerge. At the moment, people are, as it were, saying,
"Okay. While that is going on, let's just concentrate on
that." That is the sensible thing to do. A lot of thinking
will be done by the Israeli Government, the Arab world, ourselves
as a Quartet and the American Administration. At the moment, people
want to see how they can achieve a positive way forward.
Chairman: Final question, David.
Q244 Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: On the
settlement issue, when previous peace proposals have been put
forward, it has always been said that we can just about live with
the present Israeli settlement on the West Bank provided that
there are not any more, but there have been more and there are
still being more, and the present Israeli Government are committed
to them. I know that President Obama is trying to prevent them,
but so far without success. Is it not about time that you used
your influence to insist that a precondition is, at least, an
immediate halt to further settlement building and then possibly
a freeing up and reduction of the road blocks and fences and so
on, to which we have already referred? At the minute, you are
taking a concessionary view that there is a way ahead and that
talks must take place. Unless the settlement issue is gripped,
I do not see how we will get any further forward than we have
in the past.
Mr. Blair: First, let me make
it clear that I am absolutely of the same position as President
Obama, Secretary Clinton, the European Community and everybody,
but the question is, can we succeed in that? That is the very
thing that is being determined now. I do not make any concessions
in respect of settlements. I simply say in respect of the work
on which I am engaged that it is important that we make progress
in any event. Yes, everybody understands the point, and it is
a very simple one, that if you carry on expanding the numbers
of settlements and you carry on with settlement expansion, there
comes a point at which—and it will come quite soon—it
is hard to envisage a viable and contiguous Palestinian state.
That is precisely why people keep making that point. My only point
is that there is a whole series of other issues that need to be
dealt with that are about the facts on the ground and that are
really important for ordinary Palestinians. That is not to diminish
the importance of the settlement question—it is up there
now in as many lights as it has ever been—but it is one
aspect of what is a whole matrix of issues that has to be resolved
and dealt with in the right way. All I am saying is that I can
see how this can be done; whether it is done or not will be determined
over the coming period.
Chairman: Tony, thank you very much.
This will be extremely valuable for our report when we produce
it. It is also good to have you before a Committee in the House
again.
Mr. Blair: Thank you for having
me.
Chairman: We wish you all the best for
the future.
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