Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
20-39)
DR BOB
GOLDING AND
MR GAVIN
LOCKHART
25 NOVEMBER 2008
Q20 David Davies: We had some evidence
from a senior police officer in Cambridge which suggested that
some communities appeared to be more disposed than others to carry
knives. We have to be very careful not to generalise and stereotype,
but is that finding something with which you would concur? If
so, do you agree with the evidence we have received that this
is likely to include some European communities as well as others?
I believe Iraq and also Somalia have been mentioned in this context.
Dr Golding: In answering that
question there are two aspects, one environmental and the other
cultural. The environmental aspects touch on some of the risk
factors we have already discussed as you would expect: economic
deprivation, dysfunctional families and so on. As to the cultural
point to which you allude, the hypothesis is that there are people
in some communities who because of culture or background are more
predisposed to extreme violence than others. It was not an area
that we looked at and so any answer we give is not particularly
informed by research.
Q21 David Davies: Is it something
that we should look into? Whilst making it absolutely clear that
the majority of people even in the communities we are looking
at are not in any way predisposed to carry knives or commit violence,
might there be a slightly higher minority than one would expect
elsewhere? If so, would it be reasonable to look at that and perhaps
go into those communities and ask the leading members to send
out a message on this and what is expected?
Dr Golding: I understand where
you are coming from, but it is a multifaceted answer. It is absolutely
essential to be able to understand as fundamentally as one can
the root causes of criminality and the propensity to serious and
extreme violence. That is the second time I have used the word
"extreme" and with good reason.
Q22 David Davies: That is what it
is.
Dr Golding: Yes. People escalate
to extreme violence in the current gang climate much quicker than
was hitherto the case. I fully support some proper research into
the root causes. I return to the fact that there is a lot of research
that understands what the risk factors are. There are plenty of
opportunities properly resourced to make effective interventions.
We know an awful lot already.
Q23 David Davies: I am slightly deviating
from my script. You said something that concurs with evidence
we took in Stockwell; that is, young people carry knives because
they say it makes them feel safe from others who carry knives
and they do not trust the police. I am sure you agree that we
have a vicious circle. How do we get over to young people the
message that rather than carry knives they must tell the police
that some other group has knives so the police can deal with that?
Does it worry you that some young people who appear to be in government-sponsored
or publicly-funded organisations are saying to us in Stockwell
that they have a culture—I forget the expression used—of
not grassing people up and dealing with things themselves? That
was the message in so many words that came out from one young
person in a publicly-funded organisation. How do we get over this?
Should we be publicly funding organisations that allow that culture
to continue to flourish?
Dr Golding: That is a difficult
question and the answer is again multifaceted. I do not think
I shall be drawn into the question of public funding, but I will
get onto the safer ground of research. We need to understand that
perhaps there are primarily two distinguishable groups who commit
this kind of extreme violence. First, there are persistent offenders
who show violent and, in the jargon, oppositional behaviour in
childhood which persists through into adulthood.
Q24 Ms Buck: To go back to Mr Davies'
previous question, I was under the impression there was some research
into the impact of and behaviour of some people within communities
who come from war zones, for example Somalia and other failed
states. Can you comment on that? Do you also agree with me that
if that is the case, as I believe it is, first, we should be doing
some research and, second, we should not use the word "cultural"
in that context because there is an important distinction to be
made?
Dr Golding: You would expect me
to agree to more research. I do not mean that in a trite way.
This is an area that needs a lot of work. I say that because this
is a fast-changing scenario. The sort of research that we would
have been looking at in the 1990s is not as applicable to the
situation in 2000 and the noughties, as you would call it, because
of some of the things you have spoken about, for example immigration.
I do not resile from the use of the word "cultural"
because one must reflect on the nature of the environment some
of these people have come from which bears no relation to anything
that we would understand here.
Q25 Martin Salter: Looking through
some of the written evidence we have received, there appears to
be a significant under-reporting of knife crime. The 2002 Crimestopper
Survey said that 51% of young victims of knife crime did not report
the crime to the police and 45% did not tell their parents. To
bring it more up to date, Liam Black, who sat on the Street Weapons
Commission chaired by Cherie Booth, said that Merseyside Ambulance
Service also claimed that 50% of stabbing victims that it dealt
with did not report incidents to the police. That challenges the
validity of some of the research we have. Is there not a strong
case for accident and emergency departments being compelled to
share with the police data on stabbings of some sort? Do you see
any problems with that approach?
Mr Lockhart: In my view there
is a very strong case for accident and emergency departments to
share the type of information on knife crime as they do for gun
crime. Although the Tackling Knives Action Plan has been running
for only a year it has made progress on that point. The GMC and
BMA have put out positive statements to that effect, but our interviews
with senior police and the Department of Health suggest that there
is some concern about data privacy and other issues. I am sure
we should address those issues in more detail.
Q26 Martin Salter: Can you elaborate
on the difference between having a body punctured by a bullet
and punctured by a knife? What is the difference in the data privacy
issues with which these bureaucrats appear to have a problem?
Mr Lockhart: I am afraid you would
have to ask them.
Q27 Martin Salter: So, there is none
really?
Mr Lockhart: As you say, in the
UK knife crime is a bigger issue than gun crime. If accident and
emergency is sharing this information for guns we should expect
them to do the same for knives.
Q28 Martin Salter: Dr Golding, is
that also your view?
Dr Golding: Absolutely. This is
serious and extreme violence that is life-threatening. We need
to move away from considering this as a problem of crime; it is
a public health problem.
Q29 Martin Salter: Is it your professional
view that one of your recommendations would be to press for data
sharing in this way?
Dr Golding: Absolutely, but it
should not be confined simply to the health sector. There are
others who have information that can feed into the intelligence
picture and give sensible background intelligence to inform policy
and action.
Q30 Martin Salter: Such as?
Dr Golding: Education.
Q31 Mr Brake: Do you believe that
data should be anonymised?
Dr Golding: That could be a first
step. It depends on the nature of what is being asked. If we are
talking about a penetration that is life-threatening, or if it
is attempted murder, clearly thresholds have to be set.
Q32 Mr Brake: That would have to
be reported to the police as a matter of course?
Dr Golding: Indeed.
Q33 Mr Brake: But it should be at
a lower level?
Dr Golding: I believe that the
way to deal with it is to ask what the police and other agencies
need to do their job from these data. They would need what, when
and how in a very timely fashion. This is for hot-spotting and
targeted enforcement activity, but it is also for long-term problem
solving.
Mr Lockhart: To elaborate on a
lesson that we learnt in Boston in the United States, not only
were police provided with information about the wounded party
but the hospital was used as an appropriate place to start intervention
and reduce the demand for knives. If someone went into hospital
having been stabbed an outreach worker would visit and follow
up to try to understand a little more the risk factors that effectively
got the person there in the first place.
Q34 Mrs Dean: You talked earlier
about the key risk factors for young people becoming involved
in knife crime. Could you elaborate on that? The geographical
incidence of knife crime varies. Some parts of the country are
not badly affected by it. Can you also say something about how
modern life gangs differ from those in the past, such as the razor
gangs in Glasgow 45 years ago?
Dr Golding: I touched earlier
on the risk factors: deprivation, social disadvantage, exclusion
from school, parenting et cetera. I think they are well rehearsed
and established. You are absolutely right to raise the issue.
It is not an homogeneous one; there are geographical differences.
It is true that the serious and extreme levels of violence of
which knife crime is a symptom are confined to the big metropolitan
areas. Perhaps the Home Office initiative TKAP—Tackling
Knives Action Plan—demonstrates that best: it is focused
for best effect, albeit in a very time-limited way, in 10 of the
larger metropolitan areas. There is indeed a geographical element.
Your third point was: how does this differ from the historical
position of knife gangs? I reflect that Glasgow remains the knife
and razor gang capital, so to speak. I have to answer that by
going back to the context of gangs that I outlined in answer to
Mr Vaz earlier and the propensity to escalate to extreme levels
of violence almost immediately for what would appear to you and
me I suspect as fairly spurious reasons like respect et cetera.
I think that is the difference.
Q35 Mr Winnick: Amongst delinquent
youths who come in all shapes, sizes and colours is there a greater
tendency for delinquent black youths to resort to knife crime?
Dr Golding: I think it would be
wrong to say that. It varies from locale to locale. If for example
we were discussing the use of extreme and serious violence in
Merseyside we would not be talking about black youth but about
white youth. Much depends on where you are and the nature of the
communities there. The common denominators are the risk factors.
Q36 Mr Winnick: Sometimes there is
a profile of offenders. I do not know how many black burglars
there are, but one associates that activity more with whites.
There may be Asian burglars, but again I am not sure what the
percentage is; it would be very small. I ask the question because
in 2007 19 of the 26 teenage murders were carried out by African-Caribbeans
on African-Caribbeans. Sometimes it is referred to, unfortunately
in my view, as black-on-black crime. Does that statistic come
as any surprise? You probably already knew it.
Dr Golding: Not at all. It is
a reflection of the communities where the gangs have taken hold
and that kind of activity occurs.
Q37 Mr Winnick: One should not forget
for one moment that the victims were black, but the fact that
19 out of the 26 were along the lines I described shows a disparity
from other delinquent elements, does it not?
Dr Golding: It would appear to
do so in the way you have presented it. One must understand that
a significant proportion of this crime is internecine; that is,
ostensibly it is gang on gang or criminal on criminal, but not
all of it. I suspect that the nature of gang disputes, if you
will, lends itself to those sorts of outcomes.
Q38 Mr Winnick: Knife crime is referred
to as such, but it can cover a number of offences and a wide range
of motivations, domestic violence and the rest. Therefore, knife
crime itself is not necessarily what could be described as mugging
in the street?
Mr Lockhart: Perhaps I may read
you the definition of knife crime in the England and Wales?
Q39 Chairman: Is it long?
Mr Lockhart: Unfortunately, it
is quite long but it shows the range of issues that we might be
talking about and lumping into the same category of knife crime.
It is defined as "any instrument including [a number of knives],
plus a machete, axe, crossbow, dart, hypodermic needle or syringe,
nail, studded club, needle, pin, pen, biro, saw, scissors, sword,
bayonet, broken bottle, broken glass, razor or razor blade."
When we discuss knife crime we may be discussing being stabbed
by a pen or with a machete; there is a range. To come to your
point about domestic violence, the crime survey suggests that
knives were involved in about 8% of woundings, 15% of robberies,
although those figures should be treated with extreme caution
because the number of robbery victims interviewed as part of the
British Crime Survey is very low, and about 4% of common assault.
That gives you an indication of the breakdown of knife crime in
those different categories.
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