Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
40-49)
DR BOB
GOLDING AND
MR GAVIN
LOCKHART
25 NOVEMBER 2008
Q40 Mr Winnick: The murder of youths
by youths has caused great concern and alarm; it would be unfortunate
if it were otherwise. Do you think we are reaching a situation
where we accept it as normal? Hardly a week passes when tragically
a youth is knifed to death.
Mr Lockhart: Having spoken to
senior ACPO officers, our view is that this is a cultural, generational
change and if it becomes normal to carry a knife on the street
it will take long-term funding and planning to deal with the issue
and change the culture of young men, typically 14 to 17, carrying
knives. In the Home Office strategy document Cutting Crime:
A New Partnership 2008-11 the word "knife" is
mentioned once. It must be a longer-term intervention. I think
it is becoming normal for some groups in poor communities to carry
a knife.
Q41 David Davies: We know that the
vast majority of members of the Afro-Caribbean community are absolutely
law-abiding and in many ways are perhaps keener than the rest
of us to deal with this problem because very often they are the
victims of it. Nevertheless, my colleague seems to have latched
on to a point here. There is a disparity in the numbers of young
men from those communities carrying knives and using them. Asking
you to be as honest as you can be, has there been reluctance by
politicians and, dare I say, senior police officers to address
this because of fear that that may be misconstrued in some way
as some sort of racist viewpoint? If there has been a failure
to address the issue has that directly allowed matters to become
worse and to spiral out of control?
Dr Golding: Clearly, there is
for good reason extreme sensitivity to the race issues post-Macpherson,
but in all honesty I do not know any of my former colleagues in
ACPO, or even in my time, who were not fundamentally focused on
catching and dealing with criminals irrespective of race, colour
et cetera. At the risk of repeating myself, that was so in my
time and it is so now. As for dealing with this level of criminality
from the police perspective I do not recognise the issue you raise.
Q42 David Davies: Do not misunderstand
me. We all know there is criminality among all ethnic groups,
but on this particular issue there seems to be a disparity. Is
that something you recognise? We are not simply talking of the
Afro-Caribbean community; we are talking predominantly about a
minority of young males within that group. Do you recognise that
there is a particular problem there?
Dr Golding: I recognise that in
some places in some contexts that is the case, but one must have
great care in extrapolating that across the country.
Q43 Gwyn Prosser: From some of the
anecdotal evidence we have received and interviews on radio and
television of which we are aware when youngsters are asked why
they carry knives they respond almost with amazement that the
interviewer does not realise why they do it; in other words, it
is just the thing they do. That tends to feed back into some of
your recommendations and the recommendations of others that early
intervention is important, that is, from zero to five or certainly
in the early years through Sure Start et cetera. But at the moment
all I am aware of is that perhaps a police officer will visit
a school every couple of months. That is a big occasion and it
all fades away. In practical terms how do you consolidate that?
Do you put it into the National Curriculum? Do you have any views
on it? Do you learn anything from the USA about that approach?
Mr Lockhart: As we have said a
number of times, the age at which knives are carried is very low.
We have learnt from Boston that the police go into primary schools;
they are imbedded. Although there is huge resistance to it because
head teachers fear stigmatising their particular schools, that
type of intervention seems to be successful. The report we shall
bring out in the new year will elaborate on that, but that type
of intervention in schools helps to change the culture and also
identify those children who are most at risk.
Q44 Gwyn Prosser: If the Committee
adopted some of the idea in your final report would it be recommending
government to take that approach universally or identify particular
hot spots or particular geographical areas and see how it worked?
Mr Lockhart: We would recommend
targeting that intervention quite specifically. In our view one
of the problems of Sure Start is that it has not been appropriately
targeted. We have limited resources and we need to focus them
very much on those areas where knife crime is predominant.
Q45 Gwyn Prosser: Do you expect your
report to be finished before our report is ready?
Mr Lockhart: We shall release
our report in the first two weeks of January next year.
Q46 Chairman: It will be before our
own.
Dr Golding: There is another source
available to you and that is the outcome of the government's Tackling
Knives Action Plan. As a strategy it covers some of the long-term
prevention issues that we raise. It is cradle to grave stuff,
if you will. Our concern is that this is yet another short-term
initiative where funding stops on 31 March 2009. If we are serious
about knife crime and violence there is a need for long-term,
sustained funding. One of the almost universal complaints we have
identified from our interviews with youth offending team managers,
one of whose basic responsibilities is prevention, is that they
are unable to engage in their fundamental priority because they
are committing resources to custodial places and servicing the
criminal justice system.
Q47 Gwyn Prosser: I am sure the Committee
will pick that up. You mentioned a few times your experience in
Boston in the United States. Their weapon-related crime is much
higher than ours. Unless we intervene and do something different
what are the prospects of our figures accelerating to that level?
Mr Lockhart: I think we touched
on this. To recap, the level of violence among young people in
the United States is far higher; it is almost 11 times the level
in the UK. Part of the reason for it is the availability of handguns.
Our view is that it is very unlikely we will get to that particular
level of violence but we may approach it.
Q48 Gwyn Prosser: Did you learn any
other lessons that you can share with us?
Mr Lockhart: One of the most striking
things from Boston, Toronto, Chicago and New York is the way that
the communities are so well involved. The police are involved
with street pastors and faith group organisations. There is far
better multi-agency working in the United States on gun crime
than in the United Kingdom on gun or knife crime.
Dr Golding: That is a fundamentally
important point. One is talking about structures where if the
mayor or whoever holds the reins says something will happen it
happens across a range of agencies.
Q49 Mr Brake: If the Chancellor were
to borrow an extra £1 billion that could be spent on tackling
knife crime and finding long-term solutions where do you think
that money should be focused? What is the most effective investment
pound for pound that we could make to tackle this issue?
Dr Golding: I would make three
points. The research is very clear. For long-term prevention the
quick win is on early childhood development. You have to start
at the pre-school age, but that will not realise outcomes for
a considerable time, so you have to trust the research. The second
element of investment would be for those you cannot deal with,
that group of highly risky people. You need to invest in management
of risk and control on a multi-agency basis. You need to look
at the use of civil law such as section 222 injunctions. There
are all sorts of things you can do there. In financial terms given
that the research is clear and it is known what works—one
just needs faith to invest in it—if one takes the view that
the average murder costs £1½ million a simple calculation
shows that it will not be long before one can recover the cost.
Chairman: Dr Golding and Mr Lockhart,
thank you very much for giving evidence. This is just the start
of the inquiry which will go on until the end of March of next
year. If you have any information or ideas as to other aspects
of this very important subject that you feel the Committee should
inquire into please keep in touch with us.
| 
