Examination of Witness (Question Numbers
100-119)
DEPUTY ASSISTANT
COMMISSIONER ALF
HITCHCOCK
13 JANUARY 2009
Q100 Mr Winnick: Was the figure of
86 last year as a result of fatal stabbings?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
I would need to check that figure but that sounds correct.
Q101 Mr Winnick: You do not have
the figure in front of you?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
No.
Q102 Mr Winnick: Could you let us
know as soon as possible?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
I can, but the normal rate for homicides within London would be
around 170 homicides per annum and that figure in the eighties
would seem to be correct in terms of the norm.[1]
1
Q103 Mr Streeter: Knife amnesties
have been deployed from time to time and thousands of knifes have
been handed in. What is your view on the effectiveness of these
amnesties on reducing knife crime in the long term?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
All of the research that I have read in relation to knife amnesties
would say that as a single measure they are probably not very
effective. Often knife amnesties have been used within the context
of a broader set of initiatives. So you might have a range of
stopping and searching and enforcement initiatives, you might
have education and you might have amnesties as an opportunity
for people to put knifes in bins as part of that programme, in
which case they are just another strand. As a single measure on
their own the research generally says that they are not effective
because the sorts of people that put knifes in are the people
who would put their knives in because they want to get rid of
them and get some new knives for the kitchen, rather than those
who are offenders.
Q104 David Davies: We have had evidence
from people who have got diverging views about stop and search,
although I note that many of them do not seem to live in the areas
affected. What evidence can you give us to reassure us that stop
and search is an effective tool in reducing knife crime?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
The starting point for stop and search is undoubtedly that you
have to have community buy-in. You cannot impose on communities
stop and search in the large scale way that you would within Section
60s without community buy-in. Across the Tackling Knives Action
Plan areas, before stop and search has been deployed, all of the
forces have been using existing frameworks, for example, key individual
networks. These are people within communities who can advise the
police, independent advisers. They have been using what are called
Citizens Panels which work with neighbourhood policing and every
one of the areas has had a youth forum. So what you have got is
a whole range of people who have been engaged in a discussion
before the use of that power—some people do not use the
word "power" but it is a power—and before you
exert that power we are making sure that communities are on board.
As a result of that, throughout the period of the tackling knives
programme, throughout this recent period where Section 60 has
been used probably more widely than ever before, we have not seen
any rise in the number of complaints. The other thing, as you
know from your own experiences in policing, is that the way in
which you carry out the interaction is the most important thing;
it is around explaining to people why you are doing it when you
are doing it, it is courtesy, politeness. Things like wands and
arches allow it to be a less intrusive interaction. When you add
on to that the reduction in bureaucracy work that is going on
it means it is a shorter interaction as well so they can get on
their way. All of those things have added up to a far more robust
use of Section 60 and it has been one of the things that has been
effective and has started to give us ground in order to do all
of the other things, such as the education and the other preventative
things.
Q105 David Davies: It would be wrong
for me to ask you whether you would support a specific change
to PACE that would allow police officers who have stopped somebody
with a long criminal record for violent offences being searched
because, as you know better than I do, that actually in itself
would not be grounds for a search at the moment. If the law were
changed, do you foresee any objections to that either within the
police force or within the communities affected, if somebody with
a long career of violent offences could be stopped and searched
on the basis that he had been stopped for a specific reason and
that criminal record came to light?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
As you know, that in itself would not be a factor at the moment
and you would look for other indications.
Q106 David Davies: If PACE were changed
to allow that to be taken into account, as it is in most other
European countries?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
It would need looking at and there would need to be an opportunity
to consult on that. Most people would think that would be a sensible
thing to do, but you do run the danger of disproportionately targeting
certain individuals and disproportionately targeting those individuals,
if they are trying to get back on the right road and not commit
offences, every day. As you know from your policing experience,
there are some people who are searched, because of their offending
pattern and because they are going out committing crime, far more
regularly using the existing powers.
Q107 David Davies: In some European
countries a similar equivalent to Section 60 is brought in automatically
for 12 months if the number of violent offences within a given
zone reaches a certain point. Do you think that that would be
a change worth looking at or considering?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
My personal belief is that Section 60, which is the Criminal Justice
and Public Order Act, is appropriate.
Q108 Chairman: We will be coming
on to that in a minute with another member. You have brought with
you a knife wand straight from the set of Star Wars!
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
Absolutely, for members to have a look at.
Q109 Chairman: Do you want to show
us what it does?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
Who wants to be "wanded"?
Q110 Chairman: I think we will do
Mr Russell as he is nearest to you.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
What the wand allows you to do is to have a less intrusive interaction.
You can use these devices either in an audible mode or in a vibrate
mode like a mobile telephone.
Q111 Chairman: How many of your officers
would have one of those?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
We would normally use them, as would British Transport policing
colleagues who are going to speak to you after me, within specific
policing operations. Virtually all the boroughs now have these.
We have grown the numbers right across the country. Within London
we have used it for the operation Blunt 2.
Q112 Chairman: And the cost is?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
They vary, but it is roughly around £70. The cost of the
large arches, which I think you are going to see in Operation
Shield, an operation at one of the stations later today, would
be around £2,000 for one of the larger mobiles. They are
like the security devices that you see at the front of this building,
but they are mobile versions of that, so you stack it up and it
builds into an arch.
Chairman: Thank you. That is very helpful.
Thank you very much for bringing it with you.
Q113 Gwyn Prosser: Mr Hitchcock,
from your last answer you give the impression that you are satisfied
with the frequency of the use of stop and search under Section
60 to combat knife crimes. Do you think it is appropriate at the
present frequency, should it be reduced as part of the campaign,
or do you see room for it to be increased?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
The requirement to understand the intelligence profile and the
requirement to be able to document and articulate why Section
60 is in place is important; I think it is an important safeguard.
I believe that by having that it means that Section 60 is used
in the right places at the right times, I believe that the current
power is appropriate and the way in which we have been using it
has been appropriate and as a result of that I think it has worked
well. I know there are places like Amsterdam who have different
powers. Obviously you have got the whole Police and Criminal Evidence
Act. I joined the police service in 1977 so I can remember back
to pre-PACE days and the wide variance of powers that were available.
I think the combination of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act
and the other powers under public order are acts now appropriate
and are still appropriate to the present day.
Q114 Gwyn Prosser: I want to ask
you some questions in relation to operation Blunt 2. We have got
some figures here that show that since November 2008 more than
2,900 knives were detected on people and it resulted in 5,000
arrests. What action, if any, do you take against all these other
thousands of people who have come through? Are they all coming
through just that day and making the mistake of taking a knife
to school or something?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
No. Those figures are Metropolitan Police figures and represent
arrests for other offences. Although you will have a certain number
of those that are knife offences, which is where you get the 2,900
figure from, there will be arrests of people who are stopped and
searched initially in relation to a perceived knife issue but
who actually have drugs or stolen property on them or other offences,
so they will be dealt with for those offences and will not register
in the knife crime figures.
Q115 Gwyn Prosser: We are going along
to a station in London shortly to look at the arches and the detectors.
If someone comes through and they have got a pen knife in their
pocket, is that okay? What happens to them?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
If it is within the bounds of below the three inches and it is
a knife, that is legal, that would not be taken off them because
it is one of the ones that complies with the law.
Q116 Gwyn Prosser: And if it is over
three inches?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
If it is over three inches then it is an offence and they will
be dealt with. One of the issues before the tackling knives programme
came into play was that charging standards were quite variable
across the country. Within the tackling knife programme areas
now across the nation we have a charging standard for the police
service. The CPS has a set of guidance that is standard for them,
the courts now have guidance and, as a result of that, within
the Tackling Knifes Action Plan areas over 90% of people will
now be charged and the others will be the ones that have fallen
into cautioning and the other categories. There is now a presumption
that people will be charged, which is happening.
Q117 Tom Brake: Would you expect
officers to show any flexibility, particularly in relation to
foreign visitors? I had a friend a number of years ago who came
over from America where I understand carrying a lock knife was
legal. He brought it into Westminster and had it confiscated and
was given it back when he left. Would you expect your officers
when they are searching people to take that into account?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
The law does, of course, have the reasonable excuse "rationale"
within it, so officers do have the ability to use some discretion,
albeit that we have given pretty clear guidance to officers that
the expectation is that people will be arrested and in the norm
they will be charged and that has been what has been happening
throughout this year just gone, but there may be particular circumstances
that do allow for the use of discretion.
Q118 Ms Buck: Do you agree that knife
crime is part of a violent crime spectrum?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
Absolutely. I tried to explain earlier that the knife is the weapon
of choice in such a large number of offences because it is easily
available and readily available in every home, but the issue to
be addressed is violence in the round. Let me just expand on that
a little bit more. If you take the knife, the knife will be used
within domestic violence incidents, it will be used in robbery
incidents. Someone who is suffering from mental health problems
who goes on to commit an offence will do it with a knife because
it is available. All of those things are because of the availability.
The issue is how you deal with knife violence within the range
of violent crimes and then the knife within that context becomes
part of a broader violence strategy.
Q119 Ms Buck: We also know that there
is both an actuality and a perception around gang behaviour. What
do we know about the extent to which people's association with
gangs, whether very formal or more loosely, including these less
formal structures that young people gather into, is linked to
the range of violent crimes, including knife crime? Are young
people who hang together in these groupings more likely to resort
to violence, including violence with weapons, than those who do
not?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Hitchcock:
There is a really good piece of research that the Committee might
want to get hold of by the University of Manchester. They have
done studies that were across the country working with gangs,
anonymously, but they give you a really clear picture. The clear
picture is that people within gang environments and even within
some of these looser associations that you have talked about are
more likely to be less inhibited and are more likely to be inspired
by their peers to go and do some stupid things, and some of those
stupid things can be causing damage at the lesser end but at the
more violent end could include carrying knifes. In some cases
we do have young people saying to us that one of the key reasons
they will carry knives is because that in order to be within those
peer groups, in order to be within those gangs, they have to have
the kudos of carrying that knife as part of their membership.
1 1 During the period 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008;
there were out of a total of 163 homicides, 79 knife crimes where
the method of killing was a "sharp instrument", i.e.
a knife or similar instrument. Back
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