Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
340-359)
WITNESS 6, WITNESS
7 AND WITNESS
8
10 MARCH 2009
Q340 Ms Buck: Older teenagers who
will deliberately choose young children to carry weapons for them.
Witness 8: I know from experience
that people try and offload weapons on to people younger than
them. For example, if I tried to offload a knife on to someone
who was 11 because I had used that knife. People do try to switch
weapons to try and hide them and people do end up with new weapons
and pass them around.
Q341 Ms Buck: A general impression?
Witness 7: They use younger kids
as bait really if they are getting chased by the police or something
and they go to a younger child and say, "Take this knife".
There is more chance of a younger child taking the knife and walking
around thinking it is cool or something.
Witness 6: Using young people
as bait.
Ms Buck: Yes. I am sure Members of the
Committee will want to draw some of those points out.
Q342 Gwyn Prosser: Witness 7 and
Witness 8, we have heard from other areas that knife crime in
some places is very closely associated with the gang culture but
that is not the same in all parts of the country. I wonder if
you can tell us what it is like in Merseyside. Would you say gangs
need knives?
Witness 8: Gangs not only carry
around knives but they carry around weapons like guns. I know
that gangs carry around weapons for protection. When you say gangs,
there are not just gangs that are violent, there are gangs of,
like, friends, people who are just out for a laugh and out with
their mates who are not doing anything wrong. You have to be careful
when you say gangs because people might take it the wrong way.
Q343 Gwyn Prosser: Witness 8, those
gangs you have just mentioned, those friendly gangs just out for
a laugh, do they carry knives and guns?
Witness 8: You do get gangs that
are not doing anything wrong carrying knives because they feel
threatened by other sorts of groups of older and younger people
because they feel they are going to get attacked or the girls
may be raped. As we were saying earlier, there are also girls
who carry around knives. There is a ratio of about 30% of girls
that carry around knives and 70% of boys carry around knives because
girls have got more reason. Girls have reasons for carrying knives
such as rape, assault and other reasons such as that. People do
take up knives for either intent or protection.
Q344 Gwyn Prosser: What is your experience,
witness 7?
Witness 7: If you say "gang"
I would say my gang is my friends going around for a laugh and
you do see other gangs that stand on a corner who might have their
hoods up and they could be doing the same thing, just having a
laugh, but you cannot tell because they have got their hoods up,
so you look at them and you might be a bit intimidated and you
never know if you are going to get jumped or not or mugged. I
think that is what encourages more people to bring out knives
in gangs because there are rivals who are just doing it for their
protection and the gang members themselves, they look after each
other. I think that is why knife crime has gone up with gangs.
Q345 Gwyn Prosser: What about individuals,
young people, who are not members of any of these types of gangs,
they are just doing their own thing, would they be likely to feel
threatened similarly and carry a knife or a gun?
Witness 8: I would say so, yes,
because they are seen as on their own, an easy target to be mugged.
If they have a knife out or a phone out or if they are seen with
any sort of electronic equipment, automatically, if you are on
your own, another group is going to think, "Ah, it is an
easy grab, I will take that" and they might take out a knife
to protect themselves because they have got more chance of getting
mugged.
Witness 7: Or they are just doing
it out of respect, maybe trying to make a name for themselves
on the street as an individual and they want everyone to know
who they are so they will take weapons out to threaten and intimidate
people.
Q346 Martin Salter: Witness 7 and
Witness 8, we recently had a trip to Bristol, which has got its
own issues, perhaps not quite as tasty as Merseyside but it has
got its own issues. There was a discussion which was basically
centred on a lot of, kind of, pressure from police and from councillors
to stop young people joining gangs but, as you have quite rightly
said, there are gangs and there are gangs. We are kind of herd
animals, are we not; we like to hang around with our mates. There
must be examples where being a member of a gang can be a quite
positive thing, it is not necessarily something which will automatically
lead you into crime. I will be really interested in your views
on that and at what point does a gang move from a positive collection
of friends who are enjoying each other's company and looking out
for each other to something much more sinister, something much
more criminal?
Witness 8: I would say it only
takes one person to make that move. If you have a big name and
you are hanging around with friends who do not do anything wrong,
it only takes one person to say to another person in that group,
"Listen, there's a Sat Nav in that car, do you want to come
and get it with me". Once that one crime has been committed
they will start doing more and bring in more people. People try
to recruit people for gangs at young ages and that is why we thought,
"It is not too late to change from when you are, like, 12
to 13". I think we will go into that a bit later.
Q347 Martin Salter: It is very difficult
to get out, is it not? If you are with a group of friends in let
us call it a gang, let us say it is a good gang, no big deal,
and then it starts to move in to acts of criminality because there
are dominant personalities in that gang who are encouraging people
to commit acts of criminality and around that you then get weapons,
that is what you are basically saying, how do you extract yourself
from that situation? You are effectively in a different place;
you are having to turn your back on your mates, are you not, which
is a very difficult move for any young person to want to take
because we all need friends.
Witness 8: You need something
to keep you going, to back you up. For example, look at your girlfriend,
if you have got a girlfriend, I stay out of trouble because of
my girlfriend and I do not want to lose her. She keeps me out
of trouble because I keep her in my mind. People are able to think,
"I will jeopardise something here if I do something wrong"
so they stay away. I know you will lose friends, they are important,
but you just need to give them something to look forward to and
they will stay out of trouble.
Q348 Martin Salter: What is your
take on it, Witness 7?
Witness 7: You need to have something
to look forward to in the future. You want to keep your nose clean,
you want to look forward and try and achieve that goal. If you
want to look after your family, I know for a fact that I would
not want to jeopardise my family or put them in any immediate
danger by doing something stupid like carrying a knife or going
out and doing criminal acts because it is just not worth it. You
may lose friends because of it but at the end of the day it is
good for you, it is your safety and no-one else's.
Witness 8: You hurt the people
who are closest to you.
Martin Salter: Okay. That is really helpful.
Thank you very much.
Q349 Mr Winnick: The police, Witness
7 and Witness 8, have action days when they try and warn youngsters
about the dangers of knife carrying. I note that the police in
your area had a knife crime day of action some two weeks ago.
Do you think it has any effect listening to the police, and the
police warning how dangerous it is to carry knives? Is any purpose
served? Does it have any effect on youngsters?
Witness 7: In primary schools
where the children are younger they look up to the police more
and they will see them as the good guys and so they will listen
to them. I think that is a good way of getting the point across
of gun and knife crime, if you dealing with younger ages with
the police but in terms of getting to the high schools and colleges,
maybe, you want to get knife victims or victim's families to come
in and talk about it because when you get to high school you start
to tend to lose the respect for the police because you have different
things like section 30 which put you off. You see them as trying
to stop what you are trying to do, all called fun. So in primary
schools I would say, yes, the action day for the police to get
the gun and knife crime point across is perfect, it will get the
point across easily, but in high schools it tends to be a bit
harder which might need another way of getting your point across
and out there.
Q350 Mr Winnick: Witness 8, you take
the same view?
Witness 8: Yes, I agree. I think
that if you go to a primary school you are targeting children
and it is not too late to change their lifestyle. Once you get
to the age of around 14/15, and you have had a life of crime since
about the age of 10, because that is really when people start,
is it not, because you do get children starting at the age of
10 on their life of crime, it is not too late to make them think,
"No, I don't want to do that". The police though they
are looked up to by the younger ages because they give the respect
to the children that they need and they give the help to the children
that they need whereas when they grow older they will lose respect
for the police because they will lose respect for you. When you
get Stop and Search, when you get to our age now, I have only
ever been stopped and searched once but when they were committing
to this stop and search they went into it violently and they talked
down to me. It is not like they were checking to see if you had
a knife or anything wrong, any drugs or anything, it is like they
want you to have something on you because at the end of the day
that is how they see it, they get a bonus for every one they take
in, don't they? As you get older you lose respect for the police
and you rebel against them.
Q351 Mr Winnick: You see, I am just
wondering if a talk in itself is as effective as a film. The Chair
of the proceedings—the lady on my left—showed a film
which obviously was made up but it showed a youngster getting
involved in a crime scene, knife scene, and being knifed and probably
dying. It would seem to me that youngsters seeing that film, it
would have more effect than simply a talk, would you agree?
Witness 8: I would agree, yes,
because it makes you notice what you are doing to another human
soul and what you are going to do if you are able to see the victims
or possibly the victim's family. You would then realise the trauma
that you cause when you commit a crime such as a stabbing.
Q352 Martin Salter: We often hear,
Witness 7 and Witness 8, excuses or justifications for young people
getting in to trouble that there is not enough to do in the area.
What works in your area? What inspires young people in Sefton?
Witness 7: There is nothing to
inspire them.
Martin Salter: Nothing? Sefton has got
nothing to commend itself?
Q353 Mr Clappison: Bootle.
Witness 7: Sefton. We have got
things there. We have a brand new sports park with a football
pitch and excellent facilities but you just cannot get on to it
because it is too much or it is always booked so you cannot really
get on.
Q354 Martin Salter: It is too expensive?
Witness 7: Yes, £20 to get
on.
Q355 Ms Buck: You cannot just have
an informal session; you cannot just go on the pitch for a kick
around?
Witness 7: No, you have got to
book it well in advance because there are too many people going
there nowadays. We have got youth clubs. We have got two youth
clubs, we have got the Midland Boys' Club which is for younger
ages, like 13 and under, and you have got the Sefton Giff (?)
which is for the older groups, and even then, with the YIPs moving
to Bootle, there will be even less things around our area to do.
Boys' clubs you just cannot get in to because you are too old.
The parks are always taken over by gangs so you cannot go anywhere
and do anything.
Q356 Martin Salter: There are quite
a lot of things you said, you started off saying there is nothing,
then you said there are quite a lot of things, then you said one
of the things is moving.
Witness 7: Yes. There are things
but you cannot really do anything with them.
Witness 8: There are only about
three facilities we have got. There is a sports centre which is
over priced; there is a youth centre which is for ages younger
than us and a Youth Inclusion Project which is used to take people
of the age of up to 17 off the street and take them out on residential
trips.
Q357 Martin Salter: Has that been
worthwhile?
Witness 8: Yes.
Q358 Martin Salter: The YIPs stuff,
yes?
Witness 8: Yes.
Q359 Martin Salter: That is the thing
you are saddest to see leave Sefton, yes?
Witness 7: Yes.
Witness 8: What the YIP has done,
it has done a lot for the teenagers of Midland because it has
taken them off the streets and it has reduced the crimes that
have been committed because those teenagers have been taken off
the street. By taking them off, we have prevented—well not
"we" but the YIP—a burglary, a stabbing, any type
of crime and with that moving we can all see the crime rate shooting
back up to large numbers again.
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