Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
400-419)
MR KIRK
DAWES, MR
RICHARD TAYLOR
AND MR
GARY TROWSDALE
10 MARCH 2009
Q400 Chairman: Mr Trowsdale?
Mr Trowsdale: My role in the Damilola
Taylor Trust is not just handling communications and looking after
Richard but I am special projects director. I have a background
in marketing, so we did quite a lot of research before coming
up with the Spirit of London Awards. Those awards effectively
are a project we are creating that will focus on the positive
elements amongst young people in the capital city, of which there
are far more than the feral minority that hogs the headlines.
Unfortunately, our media tend to think that bad news sells their
products for them, so they will always focus more on the negative
than the positive. We have great kids in this country and an awful
lot of good people in the inner cities as well; they represent
the vast majority. Young people themselves want to see an end
to this violence. Do not be under any illusion that they do not.
I hope that this Committee is sitting more for them than anything
else. Therefore, the Spirit of London Awards will illuminate and
celebrate the good young people of London. We have an amazing
swell of support behind it. The website is www.spiritoflondonawards.com
and it will go live later this month. Our first awards event will
be at Alexandra Palace on 27 November of this year, which is the
ninth anniversary of Damilola's death. He would have been 19 this
year.
Q401 Martin Salter: That is really
inspiring. Please make sure you invite the Committee. I am sure
we would like to support that. Having taken an awful lot of evidence
on this subject, it seems to me it is not rocket science that
if you have a community with a reputation for nothing other than
criminality or violence—because that is all you ever read
about that community—some young people in it will aspire
to that as a means of achieving notoriety, whereas if we celebrate
good things that do not usually find their way into the media
there is a half chance that people may find that a positive aspiration
and a reason to end up in the local newspaper rather than a negative
one.
Mr Trowsdale: Yes, absolutely.
There is a very thin line between condemning and glamorising knife
violence. Certainly, the media really struggle. The Chairman referred
to the terrible tragedy of Damilola and how much media coverage
it got back in those days. Eight years ago when Damilola died
the term "feral youth" was not being used in the media,
and we certainly did not have the epidemic that we have today
with young people using knives and senselessly killing each other.
However, the murder last year of Ben Kinsella was picked up by
the media in much the same way as Damilola's. That was probably
because the media were lazy. To be fair, generally they are lazy.
Ben left behind a young sister who had been on EastEnders
and so they felt it was something they could put on the front
page. She is a fantastic ambassador and is a very strong individual.
The trial is coming up and obviously she needs to keep down her
head a little, but through that we saw the way the media will
jump on knife crime and use it to a degree to try to sell their
product. We must be very cautious about that. What the Damilola
Taylor Trust did off the back of that was to organise the people's
march against knife crime. We joined forces with the Kinsella
family and brought together the people of north and south London
on two joint marches comprising 60 families who had suffered a
fate similar to Richard's and Brooke's. That was a really powerful
phenomenon and something that we need to look at more and more.
That is something the coalition will be doing.
Q402 Tom Brake: Mr Trowsdale, perhaps
I may take you back briefly to the "McDonald's" issue
you raised in terms of having different role models. In your experience
are companies willing to release someone like that if it is something
that happens during company time? Do you think that young people
would sufficiently identify with that person, or do they seek
more glamorous role models?
Mr Trowsdale: Unfortunately, we
live in an age when the gap between haves and have-nots has never
been greater. We talk about Rio but we are very cautious about
the way we work with him. He is a fantastic patron for us and
he has been since the day he helped set up the trust eight years
ago. As a local lad from Peckham he felt it quite strongly. He
has always said that if it was not for his local youth club he
would probably have ended up in crime. But the fact is that Rio
now has such wealth and material products around him that we have
to be very cautious as in all walks of life. Through reality television
shows like Big Brother kids are now inundated with overnight
celebrities and seemingly easy overnight success and achievement.
Life is really not that easy. We have to be very careful. I did
not mean to advertise McDonald's; it could be Burger King. For
instance, Asda is also involved in the coalition.
Q403 Chairman: You will have to involve
all the retailers now you have mentioned three of them.
Mr Trowsdale: At the end of the
day, all of us have to come together and recognise that this is
a common problem that everybody needs to deal with. Why should
we not bring everybody together?
Q404 Chairman: You are not saying
that Rio is too rich to be a role model, are you?
Mr Trowsdale: I think Rio is a
fantastic role model in that his heart is in the right place.
What I am saying that not all kids have the talent to kick a ball
the way he does and find a short cut. He had to work hard as a
youngster, but it is still seen as something of a short cut to
fantastic material wealth. These kids are inundated with ideas
from the media through films, television and newspapers; they
see people who have all of this and they want the same.
Q405 David Davies: I do not want
to jump the gun, but if you are talking about the media and what
young people aspire to, do you think that the sort of music videos
and lyrics in use by some black rap artists are appropriate for
young people? Do you think they reflect what goes on or create
a problem?
Mr Taylor: They create a problem
of the language used in rap. We are personally concerned about
that. I would not allow my child to listen to such music. It creates
a lot of problems and more violence in the communities where such
groups of young people listen to that music. The Damilola Taylor
Trust guard against encouraging such rap music. If groups want
to project their music we often listen to the lyrics and know
what they are about before we support their work. A lot of negativity
comes out of this music especially that which comes from America.
Q406 Mr Winnick: Mr Dawes, coming
from a very important part of the United Kingdom, namely the West
Midlands—I declare that interest—how far would you
see gangs as an alternative to family structure?
Mr Dawes: As to the people we
deal with, in terms of family they find support from their peers
and that is why they gravitate towards them, but we are talking
now about associations. When the word "gang" is used
it normally indicates something that is bad. Even within criminal
gangs there are good kids, but in my view some of those groups
will not have good home lives and will find support through their
peers. That is why some of the people involved gravitate towards
gangs. I think of the term "gang". I understand that
I will be asked about what is called "reluctant gangsters".
The vast majority of young men who get involved in gangs do not
even know that is the way they are going until one day they wake
up and realise they are part of a group of people who are behaving
in a criminal way. It is then very difficult for them to leave
on the basis that gangs also have rules. That is why they are
not allowed to leave easily. They then need support. One of the
things we provide in the West Midlands is something called a wrap-around
service to help them exit that lifestyle, but that is not for
all of them; for some it is very important to remain associated
with those people.
Q407 Mr Winnick: When it comes to
such gangs what is the youngest age? Are they as young as 12 or
13?
Mr Dawes: I have seen some as
young as 10 or 11 years old, but normally that is based simply
on what they learn from their siblings rather than that a child
from what we might say is a good family going out to join a gang.
Normally, there will be some evidence within that family of a
member who is involved in a gang at a high level.
Q408 Mr Winnick: The picture I have
is that where there is a secure family structure, even if it is
a single parent family but more so if both parents are closely
involved in a child's life one way or another, a youngster will
not join a gang. Arising from what you said earlier, do you accept
that to a large extent it is an insecure family environment that
drives most young people into this activity?
Mr Dawes: That may be true.
Q409 Mr Winnick: You question whether
that is the case.
Mr Dawes: Yes. I give an example.
In the case of one young man about nine months ago the media were
approached about his involvement in gangs. When we did our initial
assessment we found that he came from a very strong family and
went to church every Sunday with mum and dad. We then found that
on Sunday night he was somewhere else and the parents did not
know about it. If you spoke to mum about it she would say that
her son was a good child; he was always with his parents and was
in full-time education. But it is the glamour of being attached
to some of these individuals that makes this lad behave in the
manner he does. We worked with him for about four months. After
that time it was clear that he was not going to leave that lifestyle,
so we had to have an exit strategy. We left it to the point where
somebody turned up at his house and told the mother that her boy
was going to die. We went back to the mother who could not believe
it. This was a boy who went to church every Sunday with mum and
dad and was in full-time education. We have done some work with
him and found out that there are lots of other kids who because
of the glamour associated with these people in their own areas
take that path regardless of whether or not they come from single
parent families. You cannot rely on just the parents. I agree
with Gary and Richard about the extended family, but you also
have to take this into schools. From the point of view of these
individuals one of the big issues is that there is a certain glamour
attached to violence if you win and it continues. But our children
are not taught how to deal with conflict in school, what conflict
is and how it can spiral out of control. I think that is as much
part of their education in schools as in the family. Families
do not normally get around to that, but schools have an ideal
opportunity with a captive audience to do something about it.
That is missing. I am a father of six; I have three boys and three
girls. Some would say that that is the only symmetry in my life.
I was a police officer for 30 years and never really sat down
and discussed with any of my six children conflict and about how
it can spiral out of control. I have been tripping over to Mediation
Northern Ireland to look at dialogue. With regard to knives, guns
and gangs it is not really about association but about behaviour;
it is about all the wrong things people do. The only way to resolve
any conflict is through dialogue.
Q410 Tom Brake: Mr Dawes, earlier
you said that sometimes children fell into a gang and did not
realise they had got there. Can you explain how that it possible?
It is clear from the example you have just given that for some
children they are given clear boundaries. Presumably, that church-going
family would explain what is wrong and what is right, so how it
is possible for that young person to end up in a gang without
realising that is the route being travelled?
Mr Dawes: Because they do not
see gangs as most of us do. We have given them the title "gangs".
In 2003 in Birmingham there were 27 gang-related murders, but
I tell you now that the Johnson Crew and the Burger Bar Boys did
not call themselves gangs; they did not realise it. These were
friendships born out of school and childhood. Following some New
Year shootings the media said that there were two gangs in Birmingham:
the Burger Bar Boys and the Johnson Crew and over night we had
two definitive gangs. They then began to believe in their own
celebrity status and behaved in that way. If today you speak to
those people who were involved in it at that time they will tell
you, "We are not a gang. The group of people I am with are
my friends. Stop pigeonholing me and saying that I am a member
of a gang." Do not misunderstand me: when they behave in
a criminal way the UK needs a definition of what a gang is and
that is what is lacking.
Q411 Chairman: What is the definition?
Mr Dawes: Three or more people.
It is very much like we have read in Iain Duncan Smith's report
and the like. We need to utilise that and take a more scientific
approach to what we are to do.
Q412 Chairman: Three or more people
engaged in criminal activity?
Mr Dawes: Yes, and then you would
go into colours and the like. There are many definitions, but
the UK needs one. We have a strategy called Birmingham Reducing
Gang Violence and that is where all the public authorities and
the community sit together every single month without fail. We
then decide on what is to happen with regard to these people.
That goes into the multi-agency public protection panel (MAPPP)
and then into what we called a shared priority forum. When the
police, city council, prisons, probation and the like have intelligence
we know who the top 400 nominals are. On the basis of that we
have a footprint in gangs and know which people need to be targeted.
Because this has been going on since 2004-05 we now respond to
rumour and innuendo because that is what conflict is normally
born out of. We did not used to get involved that early but we
do today. We use mediators, or what I call conflict engagement
specialists, to see the protagonists upfront and to start the
dialogue that they will find difficult to have, or indeed cannot
be seen to have, and in that way we slow it down. We call it conflict
management.
Q413 David Davies: You make a very
interesting point about young men and the glamour that attaches
itself to violence. For example, do you think there is an argument
for encouraging a more positive way of dealing with that need
for excitement by means of the Army Cadets, boxing clubs and things
like that, that is, things at the edge of what is politically
correct which can give young men with a lot of energy a more positive
outlet?
Mr Dawes: I know that one of the
role models is Birmingham Basketball Club. Most of them come from
ethnic minority groups, but they represent the whole city. Children
want to aspire to professional basketball or indeed other jobs.
Kids look up to them. There are sport development clubs, Army
Cadets and the like, but somebody must open the door to them and
facilitate that process within the communities and the public
authorities, even the police who are concerned with the prevention
and detection of crime. The police can add to that. What I see
in places like Derby and Birmingham is that the support they get
from public authorities to make sure that community groups are
not just well funded but have a project support officer makes
it work so that now when we spot a child with a potential to be
drawn to a gang we go in very quickly with the parents. We say
that this might be the right club or sport development group for
them. We are ahead of the game. I do not say we are better than
anybody else; we just have a strategy that we all stick to.
Q414 Mr Winnick: Mr Dawes, you have
touched on what you called the Johnson Crew and the tragedies
which occurred in our part of the world. How far is the use of
guns as great a danger in recent months or the past few years
as knife crime?
Mr Dawes: It depends on the area.
In Birmingham the preferred weapon has always been the gun for
some reason. It is all about fear within the community; that is
what drives all of this. In Birmingham in 2003 there were 27 cases.
In the past four years they have been under four: three, three,
two and three. I think that has resulted from the strategy of
bringing everybody to the table including the community group
who work in real time. When somebody is subjected to extreme violence—raped,
shot or stabbed—or kidnapped, there is the potential for
retaliation and revenge. We now have a system to deal with that.
The police do what they have to do by way of enforcement, but
the community and all the other public authorities, including
the prisons—because what happens outside will take place
in the prisons, and vice versa—kick in and work together
straight away. Everybody comes up with an action plan. Woe betide
you if a month later you have not done what you said you would
do.
Q415 Ms Buck: I want to ask a question
about mediation. To what extent do you think it is true that young
people would genuinely benefit from the skill of being able to
ratchet down conflict rather than ratchet it up? To what extent
is it really an inevitable consequence of hardened criminal behaviour?
Is there really scope for it?
Mr Dawes: There is. I go back
to the figures. The reality is that it is about conversations.
A lot of the time the people involved do not know each other.
If we are in a position to provide fear-mediators within schools
a lot of the issues that take place outside the school would not
take place because they would have real time access to people
who know how to deal with conflict and get them to talk to each
other. Southwark in London has a fear-mediation scheme in schools
and it runs very well. Just like with prisons, the impact of whatever
takes place in the community will have an impact in the schools;
it is real time. But it does work; I have seen it. I was a copper
who was very much of the view that you should lock up people and
throw away the key. I do not think like that any more because
I realise that there must be something else. For the person who
goes to prison to serve a sentence that conflict has not gone
away. Peers and siblings will pick it up. Somebody must help them
work this out and they will do so.
Q416 Ms Buck: I believe that Birmingham
is Britain's biggest education authority. Why is it that you have
not been able to get Birmingham to pick up that idea?
Mr Dawes: The truth is that they
have just come to the table. I think that it will take place,
but it is about building. In the first instance it was very difficult
to get any chief constable or any council chief executive to agree
that somebody should be able to talk to criminals. Having convinced
them that it works—they have seen it—we have trained
24 mediators for south of the river in London so that they can
do exactly what we are trying to do in the West Midlands.
Q417 Ms Buck: You gave evidence to
the Street Weapons Commission last year. You said that if an offender
or gang member came into contact with your organisation they would
get a significantly higher level of intervention than otherwise.
In some way is that a kind of lottery, or are you confident that
you are getting a proper referral of the people who would benefit
most from what you offer?
Mr Dawes: The mediation service
that we provide—there should be lots of others—deals
with those who are in the high street. We have information-sharing
agreements, protocols and things like that; we share information
with public authorities, but the reality is that a lot of our
referrals come from the police, the city council, probation, prisons
and the like. These are the people who create the most damage
to the reputation of Birmingham. But we do not work just in Birmingham;
we work in a lot of other areas and I think the evidence remains
the same.
Q418 Ms Buck: Remind me who funds
you.
Mr Dawes: We are funded by the
Community Safety Partnership in Birmingham. The mediation service
must be independent because of the issue of confidentiality. However,
our main aim, like that of public authorities, is the preservation
of life. Therefore, if we are told or believe that that person
is going to kill someone we will do what is right.
Q419 Ms Buck: On the question of
breaking the cycle of reoffending, what do you say are the three
top messages for policymakers? What would work? What does your
organisation do that is most effective in breaking the cycle?
Mr Dawes: What we do is create
the peace. If people go back into education, training or employment
they can put their time into that rather than look over their
shoulder or plan retaliation and revenge. One thing to do is create
some peace around the individual. There are issues related to
poverty and housing. If we do not want these people to reoffend
they must have the requisite paid for wrap-around services. There
are lots of voluntary groups out there which are expert not just
in terms of information they receive from the community but on
what needs to be done. I do not think we utilise them sufficiently
and treat them as professionals. They are almost treated like
hubby bobbies, to use that term, but they are not; they put a
lot of time into the community. Because of the way they struggle
in terms of funding they cannot plan for the future; they plan
year on year and so cannot see the future themselves when trying
to provide a future for the people with whom they are involved.
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