Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
60-79)
RT HON
JACQUI SMITH
MP AND SIR
DAVID NORMINGTON
KCB
20 JANUARY 2009
Q60 David Davies: That is why I call
you Home Secretary and not Jackie.
Jacqui Smith: You have called
me Jackie at various times, David, and we are certainly not friends.
Chairman: If he was a friend of yours,
he probably is not any longer since you did not shortlist him
for the Metropolitan Commissioner's job.
Q61 Mr Clappison: Sir David, I have
seen the brief statement which you issued about this. When was
it that you actually knew that a member of the Opposition or any
Member of Parliament was subject to this police investigation?
Sir David Normington: At 1.45
on the twenty-seventh, which is in my statement.
Q62 Chairman: Of November?
Sir David Normington: Yes, when
I was rung by Bob Quick to be told that the offices and homes
of a Conservative Front Bench spokesman were to be searched.
Q63 Mr Clappison: In your statement
you said, "I was informed by the Metropolitan Police at about
1.45 that a search was about to be conducted at the home and offices
of a member of the Opposition Front Bench. I was subsequently
told that an arrest had been made." Did you know that a member
of the Opposition Front Bench or any MP was the subject of an
investigation before that?
Sir David Normington: No.
Q64 Mr Clappison: So that had never
came up in your experience?
Sir David Normington: No.
Q65 Mr Clappison: Did you find it
surprising that you were not told about that?
Sir David Normington: No, I do
not think so. I was very focussed on my leaker. My whole aim has
been to find my leaker. It is a matter of record, as we have discussed,
that the Opposition had been using some of the material that my
leaker or leakers had used. It is just a mile from that to believing
that an Opposition Front Bench spokesman would himself become
the subject of an investigation. I did not believe that was going
to happen and I am afraid it did not occur to me that it would.
Q66 Mr Clappison: It was not within
your range of contemplation? You never drew a connection between
the fact that the Opposition had received this information but
that they might be the subject of the investigation?
Sir David Normington: I did not
believe that a Front Bench spokesman would be the subject of the
investigation, no.
Q67 Mr Clappison: There is a sense
here that this has all got out of hand and that it has resulted
in something which has a very serious impact as far as Parliament
is concerned. You have put your case for this today, but how would
you draw a distinction between this case and the many other cases
which there have been in the past, including with other oppositions
and other governments, of leaks which have taken place then?
Jacqui Smith: As I have also previously
said in Parliament, I think it is absolutely incumbent on us as
politicians to defend the right of politicians to use information
that they get access to in a variety of ways, either to make their
political case or to hold governments to account; that is wholly
part of our function. There is a significant distance between
that and a process from the point of view of the Civil Service
which is about a systematic series of leaks.
Q68 Mr Clappison: The characteristics
which you have used to try and differentiate this would apply
to leaks which there have been in the past. They have been systematic
and they have been on information which is embarrassing to the
Government.
Jacqui Smith: I am not quite sure
what you are referring to.
Q69 Mr Clappison: I am not going
to go into it. You know that there have been previous leaks which
have been admitted by members of oppositions in the past which
have been used to embarrass the Government of the Day. I am asking
you what the distinction is between that and this. This has all
got out of hand. On this occasion we have seen the police coming
into Parliament and searching a Member of Parliament's desks and
offices and arresting him.
Jacqui Smith: I think I have been
very clear that the difference is the systematic nature of the
leaks that have occurred this time, as the Permanent Secretary
has outlined. Incidentally, of course, as the Home Office civil
servant has himself placed on the public record in a statement
that was given by his solicitor, this was a "close to regular"
series of leaks over a period of time. I do think that that is
fundamentally different in terms of the impact that it has on
the ability of a government of any persuasion to be able to operate
and, given the nature of the business that we deal with in the
Home Office, the potential risk to information that we have a
duty on behalf of the country to maintain securely.
Q70 Chairman: Let us just look at
the timescale here on 27 November. You were informed at 1.45,
that is when Bob Quick telephoned you?
Sir David Normington: I was just
out of the office. I would have taken it about 15 minutes earlier.
Q71 Chairman: So at 1.30?
Sir David Normington: Somewhere
around that. I came back and rang him straight back.
Q72 Chairman: And he informed you,
"We're going to arrest Damian Green"?
Sir David Normington: He did not
actually. This is quite important. He said, "We're going
to search the offices and homes of a Conservative Front Bench
spokesman."
Q73 Chairman: And he did not tell
you who that was?
Sir David Normington: I asked
who it was and I was told that it was Damian Green.
Q74 Chairman: So you knew at 1.30—
Sir David Normington: I knew at
1.45. That is when the conversation took place.
Q75 Chairman: Were you shocked? Were
you surprised? Did you expect it?
Sir David Normington: I was extremely
surprised and I expressed that surprise.
Q76 Chairman: You did not say, "Why
are you going to do this?" This is a gentleman who shadows
the Home Office.
Sir David Normington: I said something
like, "Well, I hope you have the evidence for that."
Q77 Chairman: And his reply was?
Sir David Normington: I can tell
you what I said. I think it is not fair to say what he said.
Q78 Chairman: So your surprise ended
with you saying, "Well, I hope you have got the evidence
to do what you are proposing to do"?
Sir David Normington: Yes, though
I think the tone of my voice was surprised.
Q79 Chairman: Was surprised?
Sir David Normington: Yes, of
course.
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