Policing Process of Home Office Leaks Inquiry - Home Affairs Committee Contents


Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers 60-79)

RT HON JACQUI SMITH MP AND SIR DAVID NORMINGTON KCB

20 JANUARY 2009

  Q60  David Davies: That is why I call you Home Secretary and not Jackie.

  Jacqui Smith: You have called me Jackie at various times, David, and we are certainly not friends.

  Chairman: If he was a friend of yours, he probably is not any longer since you did not shortlist him for the Metropolitan Commissioner's job.

  Q61  Mr Clappison: Sir David, I have seen the brief statement which you issued about this. When was it that you actually knew that a member of the Opposition or any Member of Parliament was subject to this police investigation?

  Sir David Normington: At 1.45 on the twenty-seventh, which is in my statement.

  Q62  Chairman: Of November?

  Sir David Normington: Yes, when I was rung by Bob Quick to be told that the offices and homes of a Conservative Front Bench spokesman were to be searched.

  Q63  Mr Clappison: In your statement you said, "I was informed by the Metropolitan Police at about 1.45 that a search was about to be conducted at the home and offices of a member of the Opposition Front Bench. I was subsequently told that an arrest had been made." Did you know that a member of the Opposition Front Bench or any MP was the subject of an investigation before that?

  Sir David Normington: No.

  Q64  Mr Clappison: So that had never came up in your experience?

  Sir David Normington: No.

  Q65  Mr Clappison: Did you find it surprising that you were not told about that?

  Sir David Normington: No, I do not think so. I was very focussed on my leaker. My whole aim has been to find my leaker. It is a matter of record, as we have discussed, that the Opposition had been using some of the material that my leaker or leakers had used. It is just a mile from that to believing that an Opposition Front Bench spokesman would himself become the subject of an investigation. I did not believe that was going to happen and I am afraid it did not occur to me that it would.

  Q66  Mr Clappison: It was not within your range of contemplation? You never drew a connection between the fact that the Opposition had received this information but that they might be the subject of the investigation?

  Sir David Normington: I did not believe that a Front Bench spokesman would be the subject of the investigation, no.

  Q67  Mr Clappison: There is a sense here that this has all got out of hand and that it has resulted in something which has a very serious impact as far as Parliament is concerned. You have put your case for this today, but how would you draw a distinction between this case and the many other cases which there have been in the past, including with other oppositions and other governments, of leaks which have taken place then?

  Jacqui Smith: As I have also previously said in Parliament, I think it is absolutely incumbent on us as politicians to defend the right of politicians to use information that they get access to in a variety of ways, either to make their political case or to hold governments to account; that is wholly part of our function. There is a significant distance between that and a process from the point of view of the Civil Service which is about a systematic series of leaks.

  Q68  Mr Clappison: The characteristics which you have used to try and differentiate this would apply to leaks which there have been in the past. They have been systematic and they have been on information which is embarrassing to the Government.

  Jacqui Smith: I am not quite sure what you are referring to.

  Q69  Mr Clappison: I am not going to go into it. You know that there have been previous leaks which have been admitted by members of oppositions in the past which have been used to embarrass the Government of the Day. I am asking you what the distinction is between that and this. This has all got out of hand. On this occasion we have seen the police coming into Parliament and searching a Member of Parliament's desks and offices and arresting him.

  Jacqui Smith: I think I have been very clear that the difference is the systematic nature of the leaks that have occurred this time, as the Permanent Secretary has outlined. Incidentally, of course, as the Home Office civil servant has himself placed on the public record in a statement that was given by his solicitor, this was a "close to regular" series of leaks over a period of time. I do think that that is fundamentally different in terms of the impact that it has on the ability of a government of any persuasion to be able to operate and, given the nature of the business that we deal with in the Home Office, the potential risk to information that we have a duty on behalf of the country to maintain securely.

  Q70  Chairman: Let us just look at the timescale here on 27 November. You were informed at 1.45, that is when Bob Quick telephoned you?

  Sir David Normington: I was just out of the office. I would have taken it about 15 minutes earlier.

  Q71  Chairman: So at 1.30?

  Sir David Normington: Somewhere around that. I came back and rang him straight back.

  Q72  Chairman: And he informed you, "We're going to arrest Damian Green"?

  Sir David Normington: He did not actually. This is quite important. He said, "We're going to search the offices and homes of a Conservative Front Bench spokesman."

  Q73  Chairman: And he did not tell you who that was?

  Sir David Normington: I asked who it was and I was told that it was Damian Green.

  Q74  Chairman: So you knew at 1.30—

  Sir David Normington: I knew at 1.45. That is when the conversation took place.

  Q75  Chairman: Were you shocked? Were you surprised? Did you expect it?

  Sir David Normington: I was extremely surprised and I expressed that surprise.

  Q76  Chairman: You did not say, "Why are you going to do this?" This is a gentleman who shadows the Home Office.

  Sir David Normington: I said something like, "Well, I hope you have the evidence for that."

  Q77  Chairman: And his reply was?

  Sir David Normington: I can tell you what I said. I think it is not fair to say what he said.

  Q78  Chairman: So your surprise ended with you saying, "Well, I hope you have got the evidence to do what you are proposing to do"?

  Sir David Normington: Yes, though I think the tone of my voice was surprised.

  Q79  Chairman: Was surprised?

  Sir David Normington: Yes, of course.



 
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