Examination of Witness (Questions 120-139)
MR JOHN
CRIDLAND
3 FEBRUARY 2009
Q120 Bob Russell: Very briefly, is
there not a world of difference between the free movement of labour
by individuals within the European Union and what we are witnessing
here with the import of an entire workforce, even down to accommodation
being provided on a ship? Is that not the real issue, the import
en bloc of labour rather than individuals? Added to that of course
is the fact that the incomes those people are getting are not
being spent in the local economy.
Mr Cridland: Clearly that raises
public concern; I like everybody else have seen the pictures of
the hotel ship and in a sense it raises the concerns you are pointing
to. Employers have two responsibilities: they have a responsibility
to obey the law and we will see whether there is any evidence
of discrimination; I think no evidence has been seen thus far.
They also have a responsibility to their stakeholders in the community.
I cannot speak for the companies concerned, all I would say is
businesses do take their reputation very seriously and if they
are hearing concerns from the public I am sure they will wish
to address that.
Chairman: Thank you Mr Russell. Mr Salter
has again a very quick supplementary.
Q121 Martin Salter: Just to put the
issue in some kind of balance and context could you remind us
of the figures for the number of British nationals working in
the EU and the number of EU nationals working in Britain?
Mr Cridland: I do not have those
figures.
Q122 Chairman: I think it is 1.5
million British citizens who work in the EU and 300,000 British
companies—if I may give evidence on your behalf.
Mr Cridland: That is very kind.
Q123 Mr Clappison: I want to ask
about the UK Border Agency but before I do can I just ask you
about the points-based system. You have been talking mainly about
the movement of workers inside the EU.
Mr Cridland: Yes.
Q124 Mr Clappison: But of course
we must remind ourselves the points-based system controls workers
coming from outside the EU over whom the Government has complete
discretion who it admits into this country under EU and international
law.
Mr Cridland: Yes.
Q125 Mr Clappison: You have very
fairly said that it is not for your members to judge the wider
social; and environmental implications of economic migration and
I think you would concede that you have an economic interest in
migration. You have just said in answer to a question that you
hope the points-based system in future will take account of the
present economic circumstances, but do you not think that members
of the public might just find it strange that here we are, well
into a recession now—the figures are all showing a recession—with
the employment of UK workers going down and yet at the same time,
on the most recent figures, the number of foreign workers, non-UK
citizens, in employment in the UK is going up. In particular,
most of that increase is accounted for by workers from outside
the EU; can you understand the concern which members of the public
will feel about that strange disjunction?
Mr Cridland: Yes, I can understand
that concern. Part of the answer to it is the level of skill shortage
within the UK. I do not think employers sit there thinking how
can I make a case to employ somebody from outside not only of
the UK but all of the European Union, can I make a case simply
because I have a preference for employing people from Asia, the
Americas or Africa? They only do that if they have needs for labour
that cannot be sourced either from the UK or within the EU, which
is quite a stretch. The fact that there is such a need for non-EU
labour, principally in the skilled area, tier 2, is an indication
of the level of skill shortage that British business is facing.
Q126 Mr Clappison: The counter-argument
to that—and that is an argument which has been made over
a long period of time I think you would have to concede—is
that allowing people to come to this country from outside the
EU to fill those alleged skill shortages, provides no incentive
at all for employers to provide training in this country. We do
not have that much time this morning, but you gave your evidence
to the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee looking at the
economic impact of migration. They considered your arguments and
they came to the conclusion "Although the evidence is limited,
there is a clear danger that immigration has some adverse impact
on training opportunities and apprenticeships offered to British
workers ... If immigration has adverse impacts on training, apprenticeships
and domestic skill development the twin track approach advocated
by many employers—immigration to fill shortages in the short
run, and skill development of British workers to fill shortages
in the long run—will not work." They dismissed your
argument; do you have any reflections on that?
Mr Cridland: If I may, one of
the non-executive functions I perform is that I am the Vice Chairman
of the National Learning and Skills Council where we oversee a
public budget of some £11 billion alongside private sector
spending of something like £39 billion to raise the skill
levels of post-16 education and training in the workforce. There
is plenty of evidence that employers take their responsibilities
seriously. The companies that come to me, if I may suggest it,
with concerns about the points-based system, its effectiveness
and the need for it are more often than not multinational companies,
globalised companies, with high value added activities in the
United Kingdom—the pharma sector, the engineering sector,
where it is very obvious that the availability of particular skilled
staff under the old work permit scheme and the new points-based
system keeps that high value added R&D activity in the UK.
Those are credible pedigree businesses.
Q127 Mr Clappison: I am sure you
have done your best and that you perform very important work on
the Learning and Skills Council but the fact remains that we have
this list of skills which allegedly cannot be filled from people
inside this country which has been there for some time and even
now in recession we have large numbers of people coming from outside
the EU. As I say, your members have got an economic interest in
this but the House of Lords when they looked into this dismissed
the skills argument and they also said that although your members
may be the winners from this and the present generation of migrants
may be the winners from this, there will be losers as well which
include those employed in low-paid jobs and those directly competing
with new immigrant workers which include some ethnic minorities
and a significant share of immigrants already working in the UK.
Mr Cridland: The CBI has actively
supported managed migration; we certainly have never argued for
open migration. The fact is that the CBI favoured restrictions
on the access of the A2 States and still favours restrictions
on their access; the fact is that we have been such strong supporters
of the points-based system which actually presents a far greater
hurdle for employers if they were wishing to play the system;
the fact is that we even initially gave a positive reaction to
the Home Secretary's interview recently in a Sunday newspaper
where she said that as a result of mounting unemployment extra
requirements should be put on employers to advertise jobs for
British workers. These are all indications of our position.
Q128 Mr Clappison: I will ask about
the UK Border Agency but you will recollect that your members
and certainly the Government proposed relaxing the resident labour
market test and it was only after pressure from other people that
the resident labour market test was kept in its present form,
but we will pass over that. Can I ask you if the UK Border Agency
has made any difference to your concerns?
Mr Cridland: We have a very positive
relationship with the UK Border Agency. They are, in my judgment,
making good progress now in improving their efficiency but initially
in relation to the points-based system we did not feel that the
guidance and advice or support that we had been promised by the
Home Office was available. Employers do feel frustrated that they
have spent considerable money re-tooling their HR systems for
the points-based system, they have taken on new legal responsibilities
not to employ illegal workers but for a long while they did not
have the service level from the UK Border Agency that they felt
they were entitled to. That has created some real tensions over
the summer and in the run-up to the end of November, but I should
balance that if I may by saying that ministers and the UK Border
Agency officials have responded with great urgency to our concerns
on that matter and the efficiency of their service to employers
is getting better by the week.
Q129 Mr Clappison: Do you have any
remaining concerns about the operation of the Border Agency?
Mr Cridland: We still think that
they have a responsibility to provide better advice, particularly
on their telephone helpline. We look forward to the point where
the telephone helpline is staffed by people who are able to use
their discretion in giving advice rather than a tendency to read
out the literal wording of regulations, which is not always helpful
to somebody who has bothered to phone them, and we hope that as
we move to the next roll-out of the points-based system, tier
4, the guidance will be available in appropriate time. Tier 4
is of most interest actually to the universities who are in the
CBI's membership. We have more than 60 universities in membership
and those universities are saying what employers were saying in
the run-up to tier 2: why is the guidance not out and available
in the run-up to the next deadline? These are issues that the
UK Border Agency and the Home Office need to address but I would
stress that the position is much improved than if you had called
me to give evidence before the summer or in the early autumn.
Q130 Chairman: Before we leave the
EU do you support the Government's continued restrictions on Romanians'
and Bulgarians' right to work in this country?
Mr Cridland: We do.
Q131 Chairman: What you are telling
this Committee is that as far as the enlargement countries, the
new Member States of the EU are concerned—if we can call
them that any more—there are many citizens who are returning
to their countries of origin. Do you have any figures on that?
Mr Cridland: No, I am afraid,
again, figures are not strong in this debate, we are relying on
anecdotal evidence, but we spend a lot of time talking to our
member companies who are telling us that that is happening.
Q132 Chairman: Has the number of
registrations increased or declined—do you have that information?
Mr Cridland: I do not have that
information to hand.
Chairman: Mr Clappison has a burning
question.
Q133 Mr Clappison: Have you seen
the latest Labour Force Survey figures on this subject?
Mr Cridland: On this particular
subject?
Q134 Mr Clappison: Yes, on the A8
Members.
Mr Cridland: No.
Q135 Mr Clappison: That shows that
in the third quarter of last year (2008) actually the number plateaued;
it is not going up but it is certainly not going down.
Mr Cridland: That was the third
quarter.
Mr Clappison: Yes, I believe it was third
quarter 2007 to third quarter 2008 which are the most recent figures
we have got.
Chairman: Thank you, Mr Clappison; we
will obtain those figures. David Davies is going to ask about
sponsorship under tier 2.
Q136 David Davies: How many companies
have registered under that scheme for sponsorship under tier2?
Mr Cridland: I will find the number
if you give me a second; it is in my notes.
Q137 David Davies: Is it a large
number?
Mr Cridland: I think from memory,
but I will check this, it was about 10000.
Q138 David Davies: Do you know if
many are suffering from a backlog in processing those applications?
Mr Cridland: Yes, there has been
a backlog in processing those applications but that backlog is
now reducing significantly.
Q139 David Davies: Moving on, what
checks are made by the Government or anyone else to ensure that
people who come to this country under the tier 2 scheme actually
take on skilled work and do not simply slip into the labour market
and do other unskilled jobs?
Mr Cridland: My member companies
say that they feel the checks are effective; they are more inclined
to say that they have had inspectors visit them and be a bit heavy-handed,
so we are not seeing any evidence that there is a light touch
or an absence in those checks.
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