Examination of Witnesses (Questions 219-239)
MS LINDA
ALLAN AND
MR STEPHEN
SEYMOUR
10 FEBRUARY 2009
Chairman: We welcome Ms Allan and Mr
Seymour. This is the first of a two-part session we are conducting
this morning. I begin by declaring an interest. My wife is an
immigration solicitor and part-time judge.
Mr Winnick: I was involved some years
ago in what is now the Immigration Advisory Service.
Q219 Chairman: In respect of other
Members of the Committee all their interests are declared in the
register of Members' interests and for the purposes of these proceedings
they are noted as part of the record. Ms Allan, perhaps I may
begin by asking whether the introduction of the points-based system
by the government will result in fewer people seeking advice from
immigration practitioners.
Ms Allan: We believe it unlikely
that the points-based system will result in less demand for immigration
advice or services. The areas in which people are likely to seek
advice will change but they are unlikely to diminish. Mr Seymour
can go into that in more detail.
Mr Seymour: We believe that 60%
of immigration advice will remain unaffected by the points-based
system. What will not be affected are asylum the legacy cases,
detention, removal and citizenship plus all the transitional arrangements
to PBS. A lot of that will remain the same. We have looked at
applications in the past year by those people who wish to become
immigration advisers. As of this morning, after 10 months or so
of this financial year, we have received the same number of applications
that were made in the whole of 2007-08, so there is no sign of
a reduction in the number of people who wish to become immigration
advisers. If we count back from that we would assume there is
a demand for that advice.
Q220 Chairman: You welcomed the introduction
of the system, did you not?
Ms Allan: We did indeed.
Q221 Mr Brake: Has the UK Border
Agency issued clear guidance on the operation of the points-based
system?
Ms Allan: As a regulator rather
than a representative body we can report back only that which
those we regulate have said to us. We would not expect UKBA to
issue guidance specifically to us. We tend to work alongside them
rather than to administer or use the system. At our annual conference
in November advisers expressed concern about the lack of information,
the timing of the information coming to them and the fact that
although there was a lot of information on UKBA's website it was
difficult to find a specific item and get an overview of the situation.
That reflected opinions that had been expressed to us when we
met advisers in August 2008. At that time some said they were
getting information and some felt a bit disenfranchised and were
not getting the information they needed in order to gear their
own businesses to the new system.
Q222 Mr Brake: As regulator do you
take up the concerns raised by those regulated and, if so, what
has UKBA said in response?
Ms Allan: We have encouraged UKBA
to widen its stakeholder arrangements and our advisers to participate
in them. Advisers now go to meetings organised by UKBA. They have
better access to the centre and better information is going to
them. In addition we have organised seminars and made PBS the
subject-matter of our conferences. UKBA speakers attend them to
give information to those we regulate.
Q223 Mr Brake: You have encouraged
them to widen their engagement with stakeholders. Do you believe
they have done it?
Ms Allan: Yes, they have. We have
also changed the way we relate to UKBA so we are getting more
information from our policy side quicker and can pass that on.
Q224 Bob Russell: I am not sure the
procedure allows you to make recommendations, but if it did what
recommendations would you make to the UK Border Agency to improve
the administrative operation of the points-based system?
Ms Allan: I am not sure that it
is necessarily for us to tell them how to improve the administration
of the system. We work beside them in improving enforcement to
ensure that there are no loopholes in the system and that the
integrity of the system is intact. Mr Seymour's staff does a lot
of work with the agency's enforcement and intelligence staff.
We would like to build on the relationship that has been developing
over recent months. Maybe Mr Seymour can say something about the
sorts of things we would like to emerge from that and build upon
as recommendations.
Q225 Bob Russell: There is a dialogue
out of which recommendations might flow?
Ms Allan: Yes.
Mr Seymour: We certainly want
to be involved at the early stages of policy development and the
processes. We believe that we have a part to play. I think we
offer a slightly different perspective on the sector to UKBA.
We would like to be part of that so we can get information and
provide better advice.
Q226 Mr Brake: To date how receptive
have they been to your comments, proposals, suggestions or recommendations?
Mr Seymour: Fairly receptive.
In the conversations we have with UKBA we have received assurances
that we shall be kept very much involved at an early stage. There
is also good practice taking place. We have a particularly good
dialogue with UKBA in Sheffield, for example, and meetings with
them seem to be acted upon.
Q227 Mr Brake: So, finally everything
is joined up, is it?
Ms Allan: It has much changed.
The introduction of PBS has meant that the OISC has had to work
more closely with parts of UKBA with which in the past it did
not have any relationship. We have got to know them and they have
got to know us. They need to understand our remit and where we
fit in to secure the integrity of the system. There is probably
room for even further improvement, but it is much better than
it was and it is ongoing. For example, the Commissioner has meetings
with all the Regional Area Directors and their staff. We have
regular relationships with the intelligence hubs and their staff
and it is all beginning to pull together.
Q228 Mr Winnick: Ms Allan, I get
the impression arising from what you have just said and your further
letter to us that to a large extent the UK Border Agency and yourselves
are working in harmony and there is not a great deal outstanding.
Am I right?
Ms Allan: That would be a fair
summation.
Q229 Patrick Mercer: You used the
phrase "intelligence hubs". Would you define that more
clearly?
Ms Allan: UKBA can probably explain
it better than I can because it is within their organisation,
but they have gone for regional directorships rather than having
everything at the centre. Each regional area will have a focus
for intelligence, so we now have to tie in both to the regional
hubs and then back into the central hub. Therefore, if there is
anything they are concerned about that they want to tell us we
will go through the intelligence team and then back through to
our office at either regional level or national level.
Q230 Patrick Mercer: To be clear,
these are UK Border Agency intelligence hubs?
Ms Allan: Yes, they are.
Q231 Mr Streeter: I understand one
of your concerns is that migrants who apply from outside the UK
might to a greater extent turn to local unregulated immigration
advisers under the new points-based system. Can you say a bit
more about that? What kinds of problems might arise from that
situation?
Ms Allan: PBS will put control
back overseas much more than at the moment with the migrant applying
overseas and there being no appeal and administrative review overseas.
It is likely that applicants overseas would seek to find advice
locally rather than in the UK. They do not have to do so; they
could come to UK advisers, but experience suggests that they are
more likely to seek advice locally where it is both accessible
and cheaper. With regard to the problems, first they could just
get wrong advice. The person giving advice could lack knowledge
and skills. If the advice they get means that their application
is refused that is likely to have potential problems for them
in future because that refusal will be on their record. Therefore,
when they reapply somebody will know that it has already been
refused. There are also problems for the integrity of the system.
Overseas advisers are not regulated and may not be that interested
in protecting the system. They may knowingly or unknowingly assist
people with false documents and applications and try to get into
the country people who may not be entitled to come. We believe
that that would put more pressure on Entry Clearance Officers
who will have to make sure that every document is absolutely correct.
They can place no reliability on the fact that the adviser is
regulated and is already judged to be fit and competent, so it
could lead to delays and inefficiencies.
Q232 Mr Streeter: It could lead to
more people coming in with wrong documents?
Mr Seymour: That would arise only
if Entry Clearance Officers allowed that to happen and the applications
got as far as them.
Q233 Chairman: This will create a
lot of problems, will it not? How can an applicant overseas get
in contact with legal advisers and immigration advisers in this
country other than through email?
Ms Allan: By going through email
and the internet. Obviously, the points-based system is very much
an online system and advice could be given from UK-based advisers.
UK-based advisers are also opening up offices overseas and putting
more emphasis on partnerships with overseas companies in order
to have a presence there.
Q234 Chairman: But you are not able
to regulate them?
Ms Allan: We cannot regulate their
activities overseas, although we hope that the fact they are regulated
here means they would remain cognizant of their duties when acting
overseas. We cannot regulate anybody overseas because we have
no authority.
Q235 Chairman: I know that you have
a budget of £4.2 million, but is there an allocation within
it to allow you to go to one or two of the posts abroad to look
at this particular issue?
Ms Allan: There is no specific
budget for that, although to be fair our budget is not allocated
in that sense. We have not done that and do not view ourselves
as having funding to do it.
Q236 Chairman: But would it be helpful
if you had the opportunity to go to the busier posts in order
to check the kind of advice being given by these advisers?
Ms Allan: Information and knowledge
is always useful; it would give us a perspective on what was happening
overseas and the opportunity to see if anything could be done
through the OIS, but we certainly do not have any authority to
regulate overseas lawyers and advisers.
Q237 Mr Brake: Do you have any other
ideas about how to regulate the cowboys overseas? What sort of
action can be taken here or what kind of publicity can be provided
over there?
Ms Allan: I do not think there
is much we can do to regulate overseas, but we could intervene
by encouraging overseas applicants to use advisers who are regulated
here, to get access to them here and encourage advisers to go
overseas and work with clients overseas. We are planning to make
changes to our website so that overseas applicants will be able
more quickly to access advisers here who have offices overseas.
We have been working with UKBA International to have posters put
up in entry clearance offices and in the offices of their commercial
partners to explain to overseas applicants that in the United
Kingdom persons who give immigration advice are regulated and
how they can access them.
Q238 Ms Buck: What are your expectations
of the impact of the move to administrative review? How will that
affect the workload and the number of applications?
Mr Seymour: So far there has been
little impact on that side of things. As far as work permits are
concerned, there was always an administrative review-type system
in existence. As far as students are concerned, only students
had the opportunity to go to the Asylum and Immigration Tribunal,
but given that as yet PBS has not come into operation for Tier
4 there has been little impact so far. We estimate that going
forward for level 3 advisers—those who do advocacy—there
could be a slight reduction in their work and solicitors' work.
Conversely, I would have thought there would be slightly more
work for level 1, that is, the people who do the more basic work
in putting together applications. From our side of things there
will probably be little impact.
Q239 Ms Buck: You do not expect that
to change?
Mr Seymour: I do not think so.
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